The 25-06 Remington is a great cartridge with a small problem: obscurity.
You’ve probably heard of the 25-06 Remington, but have probably never seen or shot it. More’s the pity. This 25-caliber offshoot of the 30-06 is, like its cousin the 270 Winchester, a wonderfully effective hunting cartridge. It’s been around longer than the 270 Winchester. It matches up nicely with it as well as the modern 6.5 Creedmoor, yet enjoys nowhere near the popularity of either. Let’s figure out why…
Where Did the 25-06 Remington Come From?
Both the 25-06 Remington and 270 Winchester were created by necking the 30-06 case to hold narrower bullets, .257” and .277”, respectively. That’s not a massive difference in diameter, but .257 bullets top out at about 120-grains and .277 bullets at 150-grains with a few now made as heavy as 180-grains. On the light end, .257s will go as low as 60-grains, the .277 down to 90-grains. All this suggests the 25-06 is optimized for deer-sized game down to coyotes and rock chucks. The 270 may be a bit much for varmints but perfect for deer and adequate for elk and even moose. Of course, plenty of those animals and larger have been taken with the 25-06, too, but then the same can be said of the 223 Remington. What we really need to know is how the 25-06 Remington stacks up against the 270 Win. and similar “mid-size” deer hunting rounds like the 6.5 Creedmoor.
You may be surprised to learn that the original 25-06 popped onto the radar years before radar was even invented. It was 1920 when gunsmith A.O. Niedner gifted it to the public as the 25 Niedner. Cartridge designer Charles Newton had actually beaten Niedner to the punch with a .25-caliber version of the 30-06 case about 1915, but he perfected it as the shorter 250-3000 Savage. (More on that later.) All Niedner did was neck down the 30-06 to hold a .257” bullet. He chambered it in a variety of single-shot rifles, so it was seen as a long-range varmint cartridge first, a deer round second. Shooters loved it, but since no mass-produced rifles were chambered for it nor factory ammo loaded for it, popularity never approached that of the 270 Winchester released in 1925. Also working against the 25 Niedner was another .257 wildcat that hit the shooting scene in the 1920s. This was the 257 Roberts based on the 7x57mm Mauser case hitting about 3,300 fps with an 87-grain bullet.
The Roberts leaped to the top of the 25-caliber pop charts because in 1934 Remington released their version of it, wisely keeping the already established 257 Roberts moniker. With factory ammo and rifles readily available, it took off, aided by its flat trajectory and mild recoil.
More 25-Calibers That Compete Against the 25-06 Remington
As if that weren’t enough to steal market share from the 25 Niedner, let’s not forget the 250-3000 Savage (which most of us do these days.) That cartridge had ignited a firestorm of shooter interest in 1915 when it became the first commercial rifle cartridge to break the 3,000 fps speed barrier. It did so by throwing a light, 87-grain bullet. I don’t know what the 25 Niedner was churning out at the muzzle in those days, but the 25-06 Remington today routinely hits 3,500 fps with an 87-grain bullet, suggesting the Niedner wildcat was the speed champ in the 1920s.
In those days the only other .257s that could even remotely steal customers away from the Niedner were the anemic 25-20 Winchester and 25-35 Winchester. Both were geared for lever-actions with flat- or round-nosed bullets poorly designed for ballistic efficiency, and neither round left rifles with excessive speed to begin with.
Still, five different 25-calibers focused a lot of shooter interest in the quarter-bores from 1915 through the 1940s. They were so popular that Roy Weatherby joined the race in 1944 with his 257 Weatherby Magnum, still the fastest 25-caliber in the stable. It probably shot out of the blocks at 3,700 fps with an 87-grain bullet. But you had to buy an expensive Weatherby rifle or build a custom to shoot it.
The 25 Niedner faced a similar challenge. No major manufacturers loaded it or chambered rifles for it. Another reason typically offered to explain the languishing 25 Niedner is that powders of the day didn’t truly let this round breathe. They were too fast-burning to optimize velocity with heavier, more ballistically efficient bullets and those seen as appropriate for bigger deer, bear and elk. Most 25 Niedners were probably shot with 87- to 100-grain bullets.
The 25-06 Remington is Finally Legitimized
It wasn’t until humans first landed on the moon, 1969, that Remington finally released the 25 Niedner as the 25-06 Remington we know today. By that time it had come closer to full potential thanks to the advent of slower burning powders. Today is shines under the power of some of our slowest powders like Retumbo and Magnum. According to Nosler’s Reloading Guide 7, the 25-06 can push an 85-grain Ballistic Tip 3,600 fps and a 100-grain Ballistic Tip 3,360 fps. It’ll drive a serious big-game bullet, the 120-grain Partition, 3,175 fps through a 24-inch barrel — and probably an elk.
Folks, 3,175 fps is fast. Our beloved 270 Win. doesn’t quite hit that velocity with a 130-grain bullet. Zero both 2.5-inches high at 100 yards and they’ll land within a quarter-inch of one another at 400 yards. Wind deflection favors the 270 Win. by a lousy inch. The 270 will carry 200 f-p more energy than the 25-06 bullet, but I’ll predict no deer or even elk is going to notice. In other words, tie game. So why is the 270 Win. still so much more popular? Undoubtedly because it had such a huge head start and has gotten so much press over the years. But that’s no reason for serious riflemen and women to ignore the 25-06. If you’re shopping for a mild-recoiling, flat-shooting cartridge for whitetails, mule deer, blacktails, antelope, sheep, mountain goats, black bears, caribou, coyotes, wolves and long-range varmints — with enough oomph for elk and even moose if you place your shots carefully — don’t overlook the 25-06 Remington. (This You Tube video shows the flat trajectory of a 100-grain 25-06 Remington and its “knockdown” effect on a pronghorn.) And if you’re still not convinced, keep reading…
25-06 Remington vs. 6.5 Creedmoor
This brings us back to the 6.5 Creedmoor. Everyone is gaga (ladies included) over this cartridge because it supposedly shoots far and flat with minimal wind deflection and mild recoil. The Creedmoor will shove a 143-grain ELD-X bullet (BC .625) out the door going 2,750 fps, according to the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 10th Edition. Zeroed 2.5 inches high at 100 yards, it peaks 2.6 inches high at 150, falls 5 inches low at 300 and 17.6 inches low at 400. Wind deflection at 400 would be 7.5 inches and remaining energy 1,621 f-p. In an 8-pound rifle, recoil velocity should be 10.7 fps and recoil energy should bump your shoulder with 14.3 foot-pounds of energy. Sounds great, eh? But let’s see what the old 25-06 Remington can do.
One of the highest BC .257 bullets on the market is the Berger 115-grain Match Grade VLD Hunting at .466 BC. The Berger Reloading Manual 1st Edition indicates the 25-06 in a 26-inch barrel can drive it 3,149 fps. Nosler gives 3,170 fps for its 115-grain Ballistic Tip from a 24-inch barrel, so let’s compromise at 3,150 fps. Zero the Berger 2.5 inches high at 100 and it’s 3.1 inches high at 150, 1.8 inches low at 300 and 11.1 inches low at 400. Wind deflection at 400 is 8.6 inches, remaining energy 1,572 f-p. Recoil velocity in an 8-pound rifle would hit 11.4 fps, recoil energy 16 f-p. For felt recoil perspective, a 270 Win. would hit 12.7 fps and 20 f-p.
To make this data easier to compare, let’s make a trajectory chart and include the 270 Win. All cartridges are zeroed 2.5 inches high at 100 yards and fired in a 10 mph right angle wind at 50% humidity, 590F at 5,000 feet above sea level. Drop is in inches, Drift in inches, Energy in foot-pounds.
How surprising is this? The unheralded 25-06 Remington actually shoots flatter than both the 270 Win. and the 6.5 Creedmoor. The Creedmoor, thanks to its much higher BC bullet, deflects less in the wind, but only by 2.5 inches at 600 yards! The light 25-06 bullet loses in the energy department, but I’ll bet it’s not going to bounce off of a deer’s side at 600 yards. If you buy into this “minimum impact energy” theory (that you need at least 1,500 f-p impact energy to kill an elk,) you’re good out to 400 yards with a 25-06 Remington, and there are plenty of loads on the market.
Wanted: Higher BC Bullets for the 25-06 Remington
You can alter these ballistic numbers by playing around with different bullet weights and BCs, but the three covered here represent some of the highest in their respective calibers, and that bring up one potential “upgrade” we could make to bring the nearly 100-year old 25 Niedner/25-06 Remington into the 21st century: higher BC bullets.
Nobody is making a sleek, long, heavy-for-caliber, high B.C. .257 bullet. Hornady, Nosler, Barnes, Cutting Edge and others are pushing .277 projectiles into the .6s. Berger now has a 180-grain .277 bullet rated .662 BC! Just about anyone else who makes a bullet churns out 6.5mm projectiles with BCs in the .6s. Heck, they’re even making long, heavy, skinny .243 bullets with BCs approaching .50. Yet the .257 languishes. I’ve yet to find a .257 bullet that even breaks .5 BC.
Why? Probably because there are no long-range competition cartridges designed around the .257 bullet. That’s what drives the 6.5mm and 6mm high BC race. The .277, however, isn’t a competition caliber, so that one must be driven by long-range hunting. So why not the .257? Probably because standard barrel twists (1:10″) are insufficient to stabilize projectiles much longer than current offerings. But that applies to many other calibers and cartridges that are getting high BC bullets. Shooters can and do upgrade to fast-twist barrels. That’s the wave of the future.
Will the 25-06 Remington Get an Upgrade?
I have a hunch some innovative company like Hornady is already working on a high BC .257 projectile. Maybe not. Regardless, even with bullets limited to 120 grains and BCs topping out under .500, the old 25-06 Remington runs neck and neck with the 270 Win. and 6.5 Creedmoor. If you have a 25-06, celebrate it. If you don’t, start shopping. The 25-06 Remington is one of the mildest recoiling, flattest shooting, wind-defying, overlooked medium hunting cartridges in our arsenal.
Ron Spomer has taken whitetails, pronghorns and coyotes with a 25-06 Remington and eagerly awaits opportunities to expand that list.
I have a Colt Sauer that shoots like a dream in 25-06. Love how it handles and how it drops what I shoot. It is a light kicking flat shooting beautiful gun. Agree about getting a better be bullet, but won’t change this barrel.
I totally agree great round but a greater rifle would be hard to find! Have a new one in a box along with some Or there colts sauces ! One of the favorite rifles of All Times
Sir, I have a Browning BAR in 25-06. It is my favorite rifle! It’s probably my least picky when it comes to ammo. It is also in the top three of my most accurate rifles. I’ve taken several deer in Kentucky and West Virginia with it. It always does a fine one shot job.
I have a custom browning a bolt with a as 26 in barrel that shoots 1.5in groups at 300 yards. I bought my daughter a browning x bolt in 270wsm that’s 1moa stock with a 4.5×14 Leupold so she can do everything with it especially when reloaded with Berger’s. I made the mistake of letting her practice with the 25-06 shooting groundhogs all summer. I’m never going to get it back.we limit our shots to 80 rod. Ha ha that’s the width of our farms here in ont.she won’t shoot past 220 yards. That was her self limiting the shots her believing that is far enough for live game. Her first year hunting with me she shot 3 really nice bucks. One 8 pt at 100 yards one big 6 pt at 35 yards with my Excalibur cross bow and really nice non typical 12 pt with my tc muzzleloader. If people were honest with themselves 90% should not shoot much past 100 because they don’t practice. They are living grand animals that deserve a single shot quick death in stead of wounding them. I have a typical b/c 172 5/8 and a non typical 177 1/8 both instant kills with neck shots. She loves 100g nobler ballistic tips and 115 barnes for moose. I’ve shoot 6 moose all in the hump and they drop on the spot. You want to play sniper then shoot paper at distance. Most don’t have the skill to shoot past 200 yards it’s a long way for most and every yard past that multiplies your chance of error. You sure don’t get deer standing there saying here I am shoot me. Paper is fine for your 6.5s. Oh yea a 257 to a 264 it’s .007 in difference. .007 . Shoot responsibly.
Great comment!
You make many good points of which several shooters do, but you do put it where the rubber meets the pavement, and that is with the summary of the 6.5s being fine for paper.
Sure it has it’s place for hunting, just like all calibers, and I would not mind owning one, but there again, one should weigh the specific duty for the specific caliber and combination of barrel characteristics.
What got me here was a conversation with my gun hungry brother, which has just placed an order for the 6.5 Creedmore, or in the case of big game hunting, IMPO, should be dubbed the “needmore”. lol!
I own a 25.06 sporterized Mauser action rebarreled in a Douglas from the military sniper round of 30.06, and love to shoot it. It will do anything any of the bullets being compared in Ron’s article (which is great). will do, and cheaper.
However; I am a realist, and instead of risking a possible long shot at elk, and wounding a majestic animal, and God forbid, losing it; I would never take it to the elk woods unless my horse fell on my 270 Weatherby, and broke it in half, (which almost happened in 1989 near Scapegoat).
Once again; it was my younger brother that caused me to look at the 270 W. over the other calibers, as he had recently purchased the 7mm mag, for our planned Montana elk hunt in a couple of years.
The costs per round, the excessive recoil, and the fact that he did not shoot it all that much because of these factors, drove me away from it, as I did not see what all the hype was about.
My old 30.06 on a Remington frame would have done the job, but I wanted a flatter shooting weapon, and also wanted something that could be loaded down, and was fun to shoot paper with as well….hence the 270 Weatherby.
The 25.06 remains my most favorite for all around enjoyment, and fun with my reloading capabilities.
Glad I stumbled upon this site, and have learned plenty from fellow shooters here.
I am envious that you have a daughter that shoots, and hunts, as mine would never shoot anything bigger than a 22 cal., or kill anything bigger than a field mouse. Happy shooting and hunting.
Paul Rankin and Mike T have mighty similar styles of writing, wouldn’t you say?
I am very interested in a 2506 for the ballistics of the cartridge at longer distances this would be for paper not fur since I hunt white tail with my 3030 and most of my shots are within bow range .sorry I got off point my question is does anyone know of a factory rifle with a 1/9 twist or better ?
Jason, I do not, but I know Shaw Custom Barrels in Pittsburg can make you a 25-caliber barrel with 1-7.5 twist or a complete MK. X rifle customized to your choices in stock material, barrel finish, length, etc. At a heck of a price. Check it out at https://www.shawcustombarrels.com/rifles.
I previously owned a new Model 70 chambered in 25-06. One of my favorites because it low recoil and accuracy. Took it on a caribou hunt in arctic Quebec and was certainly adequate up to the task. Carried it on a few elk hunts and never had the opportunity to try it out. Took my best mule deer buck with the 25-06 using a 100 grain Barnes behind a stout charge of H4831 SC powder. Currently own a Cooper Model 52 chambered in 25-06 AI that is yet to be shot.
I shoot a 25-06 in a rifle with a 26-inch barrel. I have killed 2 elks with it. I kill mule deer with it a Nebraska at 480 yards. I used a range finder to get the range. A one-shot kill. This round needs a 26 -inch barrel to do the trick. All my kill were instant.
No it doesnt.ive got a rem 700 bdl in 2506 with a 24 inch barrel and get almost as much zip as the guys with the 26 inch tubes.the extra 2 inches is just more weight .the 50 fps more doesnt kill any faster.
I am 72 years old. The rifle weight does not bother me.
Oh, I shoot a Leopold 3by 9 dot. I leave it on 9 power. all the time. I killed a mule deer at100yards,300yards, 392 yards,498yards,463yards. All one shot kills. I have been shooting the same rifle for 20 years.
I was an army ranger sniper in Vietnam. I carried a ma1 308cal.of course. I had it scoped of course. It was a fine weapon out to 500yards. I had 5 kills with it. I liked it a lot. But not as much as my 2506. I am having another rifle made in 2506. I shoot left handed. This one will have a synthetic stock.
Duke, glad you have different targets now v. Vietnam!
CSM Mark Wilsdon (USA RET)
Duke, do you have a picture of that Nebraska Mule at 480 yards? Great shot!
I’m considering a Savage 25-06.
Ron, in the comparing the Creed with the 25-06, you’re looking at 22″ barrels compared to 26″ Shorter overall rifle length, and 45 grains of powder compared to 60 grains of powder.
Not really a fair comparison is it.
I’ll take the 6.5 anytime. The ‘Creed’ is the 270 of the 21st Century.
Bullet drop today is meaningless. Modern optics have made compensation for drop bullets a moot issue. Bullet BC is everything for wind drift in long range shooting. As well as the fact the standard factory rifle with the standard 1 in 10 twist for the 25/06 is not optimal for the big bullets. The 25/06 and its throat burning overbore are better suited to the light bullets. It would be interesting to see the recoil numbers and speed a 140 grain bullet in the 25/06 would produce. A long range 25/06 would be a custom rifle undertaking and as pointed out there are no bullets for a .25 to be a true long range round.
Bullet drop is meaningless if you bench shoot but its an important consideration when hunting. If I need to nail a dog at distance and don’t have time to adjust my scope then I need to know my hold over.
Using a correct ballistic reticle like the Zeiss Rapid Z allows for instant no scope adjusting needed hold on hair shooting right out to 800 yards as long as you know the range, So once again hold over is meaningless.
Richard, you are right. Ballistic reticles, once dialed in to match your bullet’s drop, let you select the needed sub-reticle quickly for precise hold-on shots. That said, you are still “holding over.” (Angling the muzzle higher than the target so the bullet can drop into it.) Your scope’s main reticle will be held well over the target while you sub-reticle will be right on. Most shooters find this, at least psychologically, easier than grabbing a real, old-fashioned hold over where your reticle is on foliage or the side of a hill! Except for old school guys like me who grew up with this as the only option. Kentucky windage! This hold-over need, by the way, is a big part of, if not the main reason, why magnums were invented. Riflemen weren’t shopping for more punch so much as additional reach without needing to hold over. Hunt honest and shoot straight, Richard! And best of luck this season.
Why not just do what ETHICAL hunters do and forget the stupid zeiss scope and limit your shots to ranges where a hold on the top of the animals back will drop a bullet in a vital area.EVER HEAR OF THAT DANIEL BOONE.
Exactly!!
Exactly 2
ARRRRGGGGGG… all you need is a rifle and the skill to put an adequate bullet into the quick kill zone.All of the cartridges mentioned with the right bullet for the game are just fine at reasonable range.
Thats the problem with all the MORONS on here talking about shooting 800 yds or longer.Not a damn one even knows how far 800 yds really is.Much to far to be shooting at a live animal.You wanna brag about shooting that far idiots limit yourself to paper targets.that way when your bullet fall everywhere but where you intend them to go your only wasting paper NOT A BEAUTIFUL ANIMAL.
You sound like a jackass. There’s no one else talking about hunting at 800 yards besides you and a guy who shot at woodchucks with a .308. Stop with the idiotic ad hominem attacks; no one made you the emperor of hunters and the arbiter of everyone’s choice. If you can’t read and respond in a civil fashion, a gun doesn’t belong in your hands.
The longest shot with which I took a buck was a little over 400 yards with a 30-30 with open sights. The second longest distance with which I took a buck at 300 yards was with a 25-06 with a 2×7 Redfield scope. I’ve sort of lost sight of the purpose of all of these caliber parsings. It’s fun, but expensive, but hey, it keeps the gun industry alive!
come on dude is this some kind of joke?
A 30-30 doesn’t belong on any list= any shots further than 200 yards is an accident and or just luck.
I bought my 16 year daughter a Tikka 25-06 lite!! she has already taken a deer=a yearling at 400+ yards. The crazy thing is that her longest practice distance so far is only 300 yards. Her 100 yard groups can be covered with a quarter almost every time= her 4 shot 300-yard groups have been inside a baseball almost always. For her age= Melissa AKA Boo is a very good shot “talking herself through the shot” and squeezing the trigger. Of course Shooting a gun with a 2 to a 6 pound adjustable pull helps BIG time!!
Eibeckt@yahoo: It sounds as if that daughter of yours is a great shot. Congrats. I’ve been mentoring a couple of teen boys that also remain calm and talk themselves through their shots. They’ve been able to make some remarkably long ones. That said, there is a place — and a solid place — for the 30-30 Win. Thousands and thousands of hunters pursue deer, bear, etc. in habitats where shooting to 150 yards is nearly impossible. They keep most of their shots to that range or considerably less. The mild recoiling, quick-handling lever-action 30-30 Win. has been a proven venison getter. Cheers.
I have a 14″ 30-30 barrel for a t/c pistol I load 115gr cast bullets in and can put 10shots in a one inch circle at 60 yards. would love to see this round out of a rifle.
She’s a good shooter,at 300 yards, let alone 400+,95% of hunters can’t hit a shot 250 yards, keep up the good work pop.
How many feet did you have to hold over the deer at 400 yrs with a 3030
He shot strait up in the air and hoped it would land somewhere. It just happened to hit the deer that was 400 yards away.
i seen a woman with a rossi scoped 30-30 using speer deep curl 150s shoot and drop a very good antelope buck , at about 430 yards [ range finder ] she had a scope with the bars for different yardages,,,,,she knew where it shot,,,,,,at 400 yards and out to 500 as well,,,,,so it can be done,,,,,in fact i am sure it can be done agian,, you got jokers shooting at elk at 1000 yards with too small of cartridges,so dont cry foul over a 30-30 at 400 yards,,,,sures its risky,,,,but thats how the new hipster hunters do it these days,,,but they just dont mention all the failed shots and wounded lost game……its too bad that hunting has went this way,,,,,as its not really hunting,,,,just hope shots and when a hipster gets lucky and hits something,,,then he can scream, dance around,and kiss and hug his hipster buddies,,and act very gay,,,,,
That’s not a best shot at 400 yards. That my friend, is your luckiest shot at 400 yards with open sights and a 30-30. Could you do that again and again? I didn’t think so. Thats what they call luck or a freak event.
I started hunting when I was 8 years old, shot squirrels at 150 yards with a single shot 22 and my 20/10 vision. Those of us with that incredible vision and open sights have always been scoffed at by those who couldn’t imagine, including Gabby Gabreski. I could parse that front sight into 8 sections. I wore the bluing off that 30-30, which I still have, by shooting it so much…I knew the rifle, I knew how to hold over, and I wasn’t such a pussy that I had to diss someone with that ability. I packed that deer and gear over 3 miles over the huge hills of Eastern Oregon by myself when I was 16.
I’ve been hunting with my 270 win for most of my hunting career I trained with the M16 while in the military Army and I’m a decent shot I’ve never missed a deer I hunt here in North Louisiana and I practice at the wildlife and fisheries range near my home I’m extremely particular of my shot placement and even more so of the distance that I will shoot to harvest game my longest shot ever has been about 180 yards anything over two football fields 200 yards is a very very long shot for me with a 3by9 scope when I read about 300 and 400 plus yard shots on game animals it makes me wonder am I just not that confident of as a shooter to take such a shot but I will not surpass my own limitations no matter how many targets I shoot at longer ranges it’s out of my respect for the game and simply just the way my Uncle taught me I reckon
if i were attempting 400 yrd shots with an iron sight 30 30 at a live target i would not post it for everyone to see and if you hit and kill that target i would be on the way to buy a lottery ticket,because it is your lucky day.
I have no plans to ever give up my 06. I never see anything to shoot at over 200 yards in my part of Northern Calif anyway. I might Ackly improve it but that is about it.
With my father’s passing, I acquired our old, ranch 30-30 (Model 94)…. that spent most of its life on a back, windshield gun rack on a ranch truck (just like the good ole days). I tore it down, cleaned it up, gave it some special lube… and I refinished the stock. It looks old and worn, but spectacular. I took it to the gun range the Friday after Thanksgiving last year (cause I hate crowds and stores) and won the pumpkin shoot! (200 yards, standing/no-rest shots and only iron sights allowed) It fired me up regarding the ole 30-30. Since then I have purchased another gun and am sitting on 300 rounds of ammo. DON’T slander the 30-30!
Congrats on the fine off-hand shooting. 200 yards is a long shot with an open sight 30-30.
joe, you are welcome to it,,,,6.5 is a good little cartridge,,,,but the 25s will in time put it in the shade,,,a faster twist 25 , a 130 to 140 grain bullet,,,,,,and its burial time for the creedmore,,,,,know several guys working on this now,,,,,
very well said
I have noticed that a lot of people look down on the creedmore guys as marketing victims and the gun sellers and gun writers are selling them a brand new wheel that already existed,my 6.5 284 will smoke the creed in every category other than barrel life and the 6.5 284 even does it better.I have nothing against this new round other than brass for it is everywhere while I have to go scrounging to keep my 6.5 Swede up and running because brass for it has been temporarily out of stock now for about two yrs.
Can’t wait!
Hi Kerry Purcell, I know this is an old article, did the development you spoke of for the 25-06 end up happening?
Yes. It did. Check out blackjack bullets and there 131gr Ace that has a g7 bc of .330 conservative. They are even selling bbl blanks with faster twists. In a magnum youd want a 1:8 twist, 1:7.25 twist in a non mag cartridge. Guys are doing a 25 creed and pushing the bullets around 2950 fps. A 25-06 AI would likely net you 3200+
Black jacket are doing great things for the .25 world
131s are currently available.. very..very impressive!
“I’ll take the 6.5 anytime. The ‘Creed’ is the 270 of the 21st Century.”
The ‘Creed’ is the 6.5x55SE from the 20th Century. There’s very little ballistic difference with slightly less powder capacity. I’ll take the “Swede” in a modern rifle any day. (longer action in a bolt gun a moot point for me).
Side by side Nosler Load Data:
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/65×55-swedish-mauser/
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/65-creedmoor/
I am a big fan of the Swede, as well. This is great information about the 25-06, though… thank you for expanding my horizons, Ron!
Me too. I have a Tikka T3 Stainless in 6.5×55 that is amazing and my all around rig for most hunting. I’ve found a load that will launch 130 gr Accubonds at about 2800 fps and is consistently sub MOA. The reason why the 6.5 Creedmor caught on is because it was designed from the ground up as a short action. The problem with the 260 is there isn’t much room for seating depth. I don’t get some folks obsession with short actions though. The 6.5×55 like the 6.5×284 require a long action but don’t take full advantage of the long action, some people say. As a reloader this is actually a wonderful thing because you can play with seating depth and seat way out there if necessary. When that’s the case you actually increase powder capacity. The COL for most of my 6.5×55 loads is about 3.050″ with some around 3.100″.
I’ve owned many different chamberings for hunting but have settled on the 6.5×55 as an all arounder but step up to the 300 WM when going after very large game. I find so many people start off with a 30-06, then get a 270, then get a 308, all with the idea that they can do everything, then finally get a Magnum rifle because they decided they want something bigger for large game like Elk. Too much redundancy. I find the 6.5×55 is about the perfect deer sized game cartridge and has significantly less recoil than the 30-06, 270, and 308. I find that those cartridges tend to have a bit more power and recoil than needed for deer but can be a bit light (except for the 30-06) for very large game like Elk. Especially at longer distances. I public land hunt in Colorado for Mule Deer and Elk. Let me tell you, it can be very hard to even see Elk on public land during hunting season, let alone at close ranges. Most of the Elk I see on public land tend to be 300+ yards away and rarely expose themselves enough for very long before going into the timber which makes stalking them very hard. That is why I stepped up to the 300 WM for Elk. However, the venerable 30-06 is very hard to beat as an all arounder.
@Chris
I agree with every Swede benefit you mentioned 100%. Another added benefit for many Euro hunters is utilizing the long 156 gr Norma bullets. I have the Tikka 6.5x55SE as well, having used a sporterized Mauser 96 for years on Alberta Whitetail & Mule Deer. The Tikka is a perfect no nonsense rifle for my deer hunting applications. I handload 140gr Hornady SST to 2730 fps (chronograph) for an average (3) round 0.75 group size. Have yet to see a deer move a few feet after being hit inside of 250 yards. Haven’t tried any further out to know otherwise.
That said I do use a 25-06 Rem for Antelope, a mid heavy barrel 24″ Ruger M77. Handload Hornady 117gr SST to 3000fps for cloverleaf groups @ 100y. If I needed faster I’d go with a Weatherby. At 3000fps it’s dead accurate, 11 ft/lbs of recoil energy with that load in my rifle, and reduced barrel wear.
Also use 300 Win Mag A-bolt II and .358Win BLR for elk & moose depending where I’m hunting. Both using Nosler Partitions but I do load the .358Win with 225gr Sierra GK as well for deer as the mood strikes.
I’m comfortable shooting inside 400 yards, otherwise I’ll either wait, stalk up, or pass on anything further, there’s always next time :)
The obsession with short actions, like much of current innovation, is being driven by PRS type competitions. Shorter action means less bolt movement, which translates to greater speed and less movement. Probably has very little relevance in hunting.
The higher BCs of the 6.5 bullets ARE relevant for hunting though. A 6.5 Creedmoor can kill an elk at 1000 yards predictably (assuming good bullet placement). A .25″ bullet would have a very hard time pulling that off.
I agree with your comment on the redundancy of people buying a 30-06, then 270, then .308. Lots of people seem to do it but those cartridges are all in the same category i.e. ‘all around big game cartridges.’ I’d rather spread things out and have one representative from each category that is relevant to what I hunt. Say a .223, 6.5×55 and 30-06. Or have specific rifles set up for specific purposes i.e. one for target shooting one for large game, one for medium game etc.
I agree. I can only afford to feed a few rifles so keeping it simple is a must. I’ve got a .223 for pigs and home defense, my trusty .25-06 for varmints to elk, I’ve got a 6.5cm for competition shooting and a .35 whelen for everything else.
I own and have killed deer with: .25-06 (117gr. and 120gr.), 6.5x55Swede (129gr.), 6.5-284 NORMA (120 gr. TTSX and 140 gr. conventional). They all worked quite well. Brass for any of them is not exactly growing on the local trees, but it CAN be sourced from the internet or, occasionally, found in the local gun stores.
Why did I just buy a 6.5 CM? Because I wanted it in a semi auto rifle (I ended up with an AR10 “Hunter” from APF). Also, I note the brass is relatively cheap and available now EVERYWHERE- Which is nice when a self loader is flinging your empties into the brush.
Please stop with the all caps, you’re hurting my eyes.
There is a reason for any commercial cartridge to exist.
300 BO, I bought one. In a 6 round capacity bolt gun (a Remington model 7). It came threaded for a suppressor, and that’s how I shoot it. It sounds like a pellet gun with 200 gr. subsonics, but inside 100 yards it is very accurate and will do far more dammage. I don’t have to bother my neighbors (or warn the rest of the pack) when I remove a pest. I have removed pests with this combination that weighed up to 70 lb. or so.
Like the .270 was anything but Winchester coming up with a new “70” cartridge to go with its then-new Model 70 rifle and a cartridge that’s “close enough” to the suddenly LEGENDARY 6.5 Creedmoor called .243 Winchester hasn’t been around along with many, many other 6-6.5mm cartridges “forever” as far as the overwhelming majority of “shooters” alive today are concerned.
But the “noob crowd” will flock to anything and everything if it has a “cool name” and is “new” and doesn’t end in “Remington” or “Winchester” even if only exists because what it really does and what it really is only possible because there are several other “unsuccessful” or “unpopular” or “obsolete” or “unknown” or “uncool” cartridges that put and kept the bullets in production.
What?
Form a sentence.
Compose your thoughts before you spew them out. You ran all your thoughts together in one massive “dump”.
Take your lithium, give it 2 hrs to work and then compose your thoughts into a coherent post.
And your point is…what?
“Pointless”
and the 26 Nosler completely blows away the 6.5 in every category.
Well, except for low recoil, barrel life and cost of cartridges. But for sheer ballistic performance, 26 Nosler. Unless you introduce the 6.5-300 Wby. into the mix…
Great reply Ron (and great article to boot).
Rifles/cartridges are like engines/transmissions. We can have incredible ballistics, but we sacrifice low recoil and barrel life for it, or we can have mild recoil and reasonable barrel life. Just like engines; the more power I have the more speed I sacrifice. Gear higher and the speed rises as my torque decreases…..
Find what you like, or at least what you can live with, and make it yours.
This also means that no matter what cartridge you shoot, there’s always the argument of “Should have stepped up to the [insert cartridge here}, it blows yours out of the water!”. Or you could go the other way with the argument. “You don’t need a cartridge that powerful. This does the same thing with less recoil.” There is so much overlap in cartridge capability, it make cartridge arguments a exercise in futility. I agree, enjoy shooting whatever you shoot and let everyone else do the same.
The 26 Nosler is a 6.5, same bullet it just carrys almost twice the powder of the 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Rem.
Anytime anywhere anyplace my custom 25.06 Mauser with hand loads of 120 grain bthp will out shoot your 6.5
Amen my dad has always used a 25-06 n always gotten an elk and deer he hand loads 120 grain hornady bullets I watched him shoot a deer at 250yrds n when that bullet hit that buck he did a cartwheel n landed with his d!#k in the dirt I watched him shoot an elk a @ 300yrds and that elk dropped like a pile of bricks landed on him I have my own 25-06 n hunt and the farthest shot I’ve made is 650yrds down a canyon at a 4 point buck when that bullet hit him he did some front cart wheels b4 sliding to a stop. We’ve since retired our rifles and started bow hunting my dad shot a 6×6 bull at 45 yards with a 100 gr broadhead n a carbon arrow but all and all I’ve seen the 25-06 out shoot in the field hunting the 300winmag, 270 30-06, 243, 7mm and b4 u all say it yes it has alot to do with the shooter but the 25-06 didn’t destroy the meat like the others.
Happy hunting get the big 1 n report POACHERS
Amen ,Santa Barbara action, 2.4 lb trigger,24″ custom barrel, glass bedded ,5 shot under a dime,longest antelope taken 675 yds,hard to beat. Love my mauser action.
Yeah I’m 25-06 fan. My dad has a ruger no.1 26” barrel I seen dad kill deer out past 500 yds. And coyote at 150 the gun cracks and it’s down and dead..that’s with 120 gr. Sierra bt hp. Handloads I tell these 6.5 guys here anything you do with your 6.5crm. I can do with my 30-06 168 gr. Bthp. I made one this past riffle season he missed the buck at 368 yds . And I got down on one knee and drilled it through front shoulders it was like putting a stick in the bullies spokes on his bicycle….
What you Creed fanciers are overlooking is Hydrostatic Shock. The creed does not have the velocity to create hydrostatic shock past 150 metres because of the low initial velocity. The creed will fade as a hunting cartridge but in the mean time will help the sales of dogs for tracking wounded game.
I have a 2506 Ackley with a 23″ barrel shooting 110 Accubonds at 3250. It is extremely easy to hit with and kills well. But in fairness not as well as my 270.
My 270 Wby mag makes the creed lock like a share cropper,the creed is just cleaver marketing and the young and impressionable are buying into it whole hog.
your right,,,,the crudmores, velocity is a little low for good killing power with the 140s,i have seen this using 6.5 swedes loaded up,to around 2800 fps,,it lacks compared to the 25-06 or 270 using good loads,,and thats on using all 3 cartridges on big game,,stories abound that the 6.5 crudmore beats the 308 for killing power,,,,,,thats wrong,,,,,its very much like the old 257 roberts cartridge,,,,,
Folks around my area are starting to call it the 6.5 Needmore. Lots of elk running off wounded.
I’ll take my 25-06 with the old Nosler 120 gr solid base bullets going 3250 anyday.
He’s also a bit low on the numbers for trhw Creedmoor. I’m shooting the new 150 grain MatchKing (.713 G1) at 2950fps. I HIGHLY doubt they’re going to get the same drop and wind deflection as me. I even doubt they’ll be in the ballpark as me.
Hi Trent. I can appreciate handloaders who get superior velocities, but I have to pretty much stick with safe, proven, advertised MVs as reported in handloading manuals such as Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, etc. If I start grabbing MVs based on what individual handloaders concoct, there’s no guarantee they’ll be possible or safe in every readers’ rifles. Also, I rarely break 2,700 fps with 6.5 CM factory loads of any brand.
Just bought a Howa 1500 HLR, 24 inch heavy barrel 6.5 Creedmoor. No problem loading for it to shoot 2850+ with 140 gr. No primer distortion. Have not pushed it yet, but see the Creedmoor as a round easy to develop with all the choices for it. Im sure the 80+% of the long range world class shooters are not hype bitters. These guys are factoring coriolis effect into their calculations. I doubt very highly that they are dumb enough to not understand caliber type balistics. Sorry guys its the real thing. Our planet loves the .264 boolits. When these guys go out to play, their homework and caculatuons are not hype, but mathematical and mechanical ballistics expertise. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the choice of over 80% of them. OBTW it can kill just as well as make very very small ragged holes in targets. Need I say it again? Shot placement. Left to right drift is the only thing these guys can’t predict/calculate. Enter .264 Creedmoor. Drop is no problem. The Creedmoor has the perfect combination of low drift, doesn’t need a ton of powder to keep it supersonic out past 1300 yards, easy on recoil, not a barrel burner, short action. Need I go on. No it’s not hype to the greatest shooters on earth. these guys are way smarter than that. If I want to kill a Grizzly or Kodiac, I’ll use my .444 Marlin, but for deer, elk,mullies, I like the 6.5 Creedmoor to place a perfect shot needed to take down game that requires shot placement within reasonable distances. I am sure if the 25-06 is better, someone will prove it. But I have not seen that proof as of yet.
Trent, you must have a 30+” barrel, extremely high, unsafe pressures, and a unicorn barrel with less friction than all other barrels or you are stretching the truth. That speed is unreachable in a 6.5 Cr with 150 grain bullets. Ron is being polite with his comment, but I think he’s saying the same thing. Your velocities are around 6.5×284 velocities. 6.5×284 is faster than 260 Rem and 260 Rem is normally about 50 FPS faster than 6.5 Creedmore. Just not believable.
No its not.a needmoor has nothing on the 2506 or the 270.its just another cartridge that comes along with all the hype and fades away in the shadow of a greater one like the 264 win mag did when the 7mm rem mag was born cuz it did everything the 264 did with much greater energy and range.But whoop it up and keep wounding and losing game cuz your relying on a mediocre cartridge to make up for lack of shooting skill and good judgement.
Sectional density is much more important than ballistic coefficient imho, and the Six Five Creedmore destroys the 25-06 in that regard………so you can get away with a 22″ barrel and have One nice and light stalking rifle for Predators, Deer, and the occasional Elk, what’s wrong with that……….? And yes, you can get a Model 70 in Six Five Creedmore now……….
Mr. Wylde, I can’t agree with the value you place on SD. It contributes to B.C., by the way (denser material makes higher SD,) but it varies by bullet length, of course, so a 120-grain .257 will have more SD than a 125-grain .264, all else being equal. Even if you go with a near top-end 120-grain .257 and 140-gr. .264, SDs are close at .260 and .287 respectively. Use either in a Swift A-Frame, Barnes TTSX, Federal Edge TLR and similar controlled expansion bullets and you minimize the slight differences in SD. Yes, SD contributes to increased penetration, but so do bullet materials and construction and impact energy, and an efficient, high B.C. bullet retains more energy at all ranges. Both are important. Thanks for the news on the M70 being chambered 6.5 Creedmoor, by the way. I’m guessing they’ll sell a few.
It is a fair comparison with the 270 . According to Hornady s reloading handbook the bullet co efficiency is still better with the 2506 rem both shooting 120 grain bullet
Yes, Beau. Anytime you compare bullets of similar shape/form/material of a given mass but different calibers, the smaller caliber will have a higher B.C. Always. Narrower profile, less drag.
These authors are also comparing a 6.5cr to calibers designed for hunting, 6.5 cr was designed for competition and match shooting and it happened to become a great hunting caliber. Let’s keep the comparisons to other calibers that were designed for hunting, and I always notice that the comparisons only go out to 600 yards, let’s be fair and show data 600 out to a grand, that’s where the creed really shines.
Have owned 2506,270 and just about any caliber made 2506 on windy day 75 grain bullet 20 power Lyman scope was hard to beat on crows , ground hogs ,not enough bullet choices for me,have used 270 on everything works well without having magnum type recoil,just bought 6.5 haven’t tested it .My best 270 was Ruger number one,have 700 Remington almost as good as number 1,With good reloads they can reach 3100 plus feet easy
Right on not to mention bullet weight I have a 25 06 AI and a Creedmoor love them both
Stopped at a gun shop years ago on a Colorado elk hunt and could not belive how many 25-06’s were in this shop more then I had seen in my hole life. So after a few minutes I asked the owner were are your elk hunting guns at and his response was you are looking at them. I then made a dumb statement and said you all hunt elk with 25-06? His response was were are you from? Ohio I stated. His response was and you brought a 300 what? My response was Short mag. He then stated you guys bring too much gun and you don’t know how too shoot them. He was right in both accounts. i now own a 25-06
I would now love to see you now compare the 25-06 to the creed when you run your ballistics from 600yd to 1200yd. Or are you implying purely for short distance ??
Yup, just comparing out to 600, which I figure is about 300 yards longer than most of us big game hunters should be shooting at game anyway.
Exactly right! My 25-06 Mauser North American prints 3.5″ at 600 yards, off a bench, and that is about 200 yards further than any deer I have ever taken. Unless you put in a lot of “off hand” practice 400 yards is out of the reach of reliability for most hunters, and even that is ethically questionable.
Agreed. Even with a bipod, far fewer hunters that would like to admit can reliably shoot at more than 300 yards.
I have watched and listened to my neighbors, who tell me they are “such good shots at game they don’t need to practice on paper like you do”.
Many deer hunters around here have no business shooting past 100 yards.
REALLY. Because they have not practiced beyond that, and that’s where they took all 3 shots they had through their rifle in the last year to check the sights, if they even BOTHERED to verify it is still sighted in before opening day.
They MIGHT get lucky at 200, they can’t tell me their ballistics at 300, the hold at 400 yards would be a total guess for these “hunters”.
Lots of corn and soybean fields around here (MN) are 500 yards wide or larger. Lots of bullets fired at our local deer end up in bean field dirt- And way too many deer get wounded and not followed.
I won’t shoot at game past the distance I have practiced REGULARLY at. I also have not “lost” a deer yet- or needed more than 1 round per deer. These things are related.
We put in a 300 yard range with a proper berm at our place the year we bought it (2008). I have spent a lot of time shooting on it and we are extending it to 400 yards this winter.
None of these cartridges are LASER beams, they ALL obey the laws of physics- Some just drift and drop a bit slower. “Reading the numbers” is a good start, experiencing first hand what that drift/drop looks like is a MUST.
LOL!!
Because the magical 6.5 Creedmoor is going to CATCH UP AND PASS THE .25-06 between 600 and 1200 yards? That’s funny. Where were all you HUGE 6-6.5 mm “fans” for all of the DECADES during which a PILE of 6-6.5mm cartridges both SHORT-ACTION and LONG-ACTION “languished”? And the GUN GODS SMILED AND BLESSED US ALL WITH THAT ONE CARTRIDGE WE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED TO “BRIDGE THE GAP” BETWEEN .243 Winchester and .308 Winchester. Face it, fanboy. If it were the “6.5 Winchester” or “.264 Winchester” and didn’t have the COOL NAME with a BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF PROPAGANDA BEATING IT TO DEATH RIGHT ALONG WITH OTHER “REVOLUTIONARY” CARTRIDGES LIKE .338 Lapua and .300 Blackout that ALSO were the ANSWER TO OUR UNSPOKEN “PRAYERS” FOR YET ONE MORE .338 Magnum and another .308″ cartridge but in a “LIGHTWEIGHT” 8-10 lb. “AR15” because a “AR10” is just TOO BIG AND HEAVY AT 1-2 lbs more and/or DOESN’T HAVE ENOUGH MAG CAPACITY BECAUSE IT “ONLY” HAS 20-round mags.
And what is TRULY FREAKING HILARIOUS is the the SURE WAY to identify an absolute NOOB or at least CLUELESS “OLD-TIMER” is by a COMPLETE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF HOW HIGHLY RESPECTED PLAIN OLD .308 Winchester IS AND HAS BEEN FOR DECADES FOR “long-range shooting”. And when they’re absolutely oblivious to the fact that the available selection of .308 bullets makes the 6-7mm catalogs COMBINED LOOK PATHETIC its just more and more funny all the time.
Because yeah, you just CAN’T FIND GOOD ACCURATE “LONG-RANGE” BULLETS IN .308″ these days. Mainly because we’re so desperately short of .30-caliber .308″ cartridges in GENERAL IN THE U.S. I think we’re probably down to only a FEW DOZEN AT MOST!
THANK GOD 6.5 CREEDMOOR AND ITS DEVOTED FOLLOWERS AND KNOWERS OF ALL THINGS BALLISTIC ARE HERE TO PREVENT US FROM MAKING HORRIBLE MISTAKES THINKING WE CAN SHOOT “LONG-RANGE” WITH ANYTHING ELSE!
Whew. I read that while shouting the capitalized sections (in my head), and it sounded like a televangelist was going on about calibers.
Hallelujah.
Clearly you don’t quite grasp the science of ballistics. You denigrate others as “noob” while clearly revealing your ignorance as to the reasons these newer cartridges are superior and are selling well.
Please stop with the all caps, you’re hurting my eyes.
There is a reason for any commercial cartridge to exist.
300 BO, I bought one. In a 6 round capacity bolt gun (a Remington model 7). It came threaded for a suppressor, and that’s how I shoot it. It sounds like a pellet gun with 200 gr. subsonics, but inside 100 yards it is very accurate and will do far more dammage. I don’t have to bother my neighbors (or warn the rest of the pack) when I remove a pest. I have removed pests with this combination that weighed up to 70 lb. or so.
Listen gunnery sgt. Carlos hathcock has 93 confirmed kills over a thousand yards. With a 30-06 with hand loads of 173 gr bullet… so like I said your 6.5 ain’t got nothing for the old reliable 30-06… so take it for what it’s worth
This same kind of argument was made about the .308 vs. .30-06.
I for one am happy to see the 6mm, 6.5mm craze take place as it has brought into the shooting/hunting world new people and resparked the interest in some that had not shot or hunted in years.
It has given the younger and some ladies a rifle they can enjoy without learning a flinching problem.
I enjoy all calibers and am not married to just one.
Is the 6.5 Creedmoor the Holy Grail? To me it is a modern 6.5x55SE just as the 7-08 is the modern 7x57mm.
Just because
The shooting / hunting community is a big tent the caliber bullet does not fit your idea of what you think it should does not mean it is not a valid choice for others.
The shooting and hunting community is a big tent, there is room for many more and their choices.
I am PRO CHOICE, I choose to enjoy all calibers.
Hi Tim. Hey, I agree. The shooting/hunting community is a big tent. And we should and can choose our favorite cartridges. My comparison of the 25-06 and 6.5 Creedmoor never said otherwise. This wasn’t an argument against any cartridge, just an assessment of ballistic performance so readers can fully understand differences and make better choices. By all means, shoot what you like. I indulge the 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Rem., 270 Win, 25-06 Rem. AND I’m about to start working with a Shaw Barrels Custom chambered 25-06 Ackley Improved. So many options, so little time… Cheers.
I own all in the comparison, 25-06, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 270 Win. They are all great calibers so I’m not knocking any of them. I’ve killed lots of big game up to moose with these calibers and they all do the job. My favorite though is the 6.5 Creedmoor out to 600 yards, if I’m expecting shots beyond that I move to my 6.5 STW or now 6.5-300 Weatherby. At traditional hunting distances 0-300 yards they are virtually indistinguishable other than you really need premium bullets in the 25-06 to prevent wide shallow wounding on shoulder shots up close or just shoot rib cage only and they will drop right there.
6.5 Swead will do all this and more in a modern rifle and thanks to the Creed good bullets are readly available.
You are correct sir. The 6.5 Creed developers knew they could use the available long, high BC, high sectional density 6.5mm bullets the Swedes and others had been using with great effect for years. Using new powders and a shortened case they came close to duplicating the great 6.5x55mm Swede. Their aim was to duplicate it’s performance in a short action like the AR15/16. It is a fine round that takes advantage of the latest technology, design and knowledge. Having said that, the “old” rounds still work well, very well. The most important fact about the usefulness of the 6.5mm and 6mm Creedmoor is that they have injected new interest, new excitement into the world of shooting which attracts new blood and money into the world of guns and hunting . In a day and age where idiots all over the world are attacking private gun ownership and our divine right to defend ourselves, I salute the 6.5 Creed and all the new developments in shooting that increase interest and passion in shooting and firearm ownership.
You are correct, Mr. Curtis except the Creedmoors do not fit AR15 actions. The 6.5 Grendel was created to do that. Good points on interjecting new interest in rifles and shooting!
I’ve had a savage 110 25-06 since 99. Heavy barrel makes it a pain to tote for long hunts but even the worst shooters I’ve taken to the range can’t miss with it. The thing truly shoots for itself. I’ve reloaded for it for years and it’s shoots the SST’s in front of a “book” rated charge of varget through the same hole at 100yards every time you pull the trigger. It’s a hog hammer especially when you put one through the ear hole. If Berger would build a 140gr version pushing a BC around .6 I’d rebarel it with a 1:8.5 and never look back!
This is a bad comparison a accurate comparison would have been to a 6.5-06 or possibly a 6.5 Nosler. Comparing a short action cartridge to a long action is an apples to oranges comparison. Comparing a round designed to shoot 1000yds at 400 isn’t ideal either.
Jared, you’re right, but my article wasn’t an attempt to compare the most closely related rounds. It was merely a detailed report of the 25-06 Rem. and comparing it to other, similar, popular rounds folks embrace for general big game hunting, not 1,000 yard target shooting. One can compare only so many things in an article before it becomes a major book. If I compared the 6.5-06 I could compare that against the 6.5-280 Ackley against the 264 Win. Mag., 26 Nosler, 6.5-300 Wby… Where would it end? But thanks for your insights!
I shoot deer and antelope with my 25-06 never failed me . My creedmoor is my long range rifle but my son hunts deer and antelope with it never failed him or me both are great calibers
I want to see a comparison between the 25-06 and the 6.5-06…. that would be more comparable. I love my creeds!
Ever hear of “load data”? There’s your comparison. Try reading for a change. Or better yet go do your own comparison. What the hell do you need to know how cartridges and guns you’re not familiar with or interested enough in to go look and learn for yourself for anyway?
Do you have anger issues when a person asks a question you don’t think doesn’t warrant an answer???
Chill dude. Adults are merely comparing notes and thoughts in this discussion. Seek anger management therapy.
With a name like “Jo Mama” what do you expect?
Love my 2506 it’s an h&r handi 26 inch bull .you put it in front of me I’m gonna hit it .love the quarter bores.no kick all punch
I can’t wait for a higher BC bullet for my .25-06 AI; any favorite loads for an Ackley out there??
I think the 25-06 is under rated I shoot 115 Bergers in my Remington Sendaro and love it. I have killed antelope,big horn sheep, to elk with it. A great round. Thanks for the article.
Ive found that my 25.06 loves the 120 grain bullets for deer sized critters and 80 grain for coyote size. I have a 270. but it stays in the gun case.
My solution was to build a 6.5-’06 so I could use the wide variety of 6.5mm bullets. My barrel is a 9″ twist Shilen cut at 23.6″ (600 mm), which will handle bullets up to 160 gr (the 165 gr Barnes Original is not sufficiently stable). I have burned a lot of MRP from this rifle, starting with the 140 gr Hornady Spire Point, and most recently with the 130 gr Berger.
I have a 25-06 ; a long range model by Remington. 26′ barrel, fiberglass (B&C) stock, and bedding block. It shoots nice out of the bock. I’ll bed it, and change to a long range 3.5-10x long range VX 3i scope. Off a good bipod, it will rule out to 600 meters. I am tempted to AI the rig, simply to slow brass flow and have a more efficient cartridge body and shoulder shape. In this slightly heavy for calibre version, there is minimal recoil, and maximum accuracy at distance. Only thing better would be a 6.5×65 RWS. Then I could specify a barrel twist that optimized for long range bullet around .6 BC. If this original barrel shows excellent accuracy, the answer will be to have Greg Tannel convert it into a 257 WBY. Choices, Choices, Choices, oy Vey.
I have a Remington 700 in .270 and I love it. I’ve been overlooking the 25-06 because I didn’t see a need for it. I’m not a hunter, but I love a straight shooting gun. Thanks for making me think.
My dad built me a 25-06 on a Mauser action with a Douglas barrel 25 years ago. It has taken many deer, antelope and elk. It has hardly no recoil and is a joy to shoot
Love Douglas barrels I have one matched up to a sako action in 7mm mag
26″ Douglas on a commercial FN Mauser. Douglas has always made good barrels. Shoots great. Getting ready to try some 90 grain Blitzkings through it for coyotes. Should get close to 3500 and the BC is decent.
27.5″ Douglas stainless air gaged barrel in Remington Mag contour chambered in .300 Dakota on a blue printed Winchester 70 action = .250″ groups using Barnes TTSX.
.257 wildcat based on the 7mm SAUM with 25″ Krieger stainless #1 = .5″ 5-shot groups with Nosler 110gr Accubonds @3510 fps. = .257 Why ballistics burning 10 grains or more less powder.
Favorite 6.5 = 6.5×47 Lapua. Operates at higher pressure than the Creedmoor, has a longer neck for seating bullets deeper without impinging powder space, and has the advantage of using small primers with small flash holes. You can’t buy better brass than the Lapua for 6.5×47. The Creedmoor is more popular because Hornady made ammo and brass for several years before it really caught on here in the last 3 or 4. Ballistically, it is a wash between the Creedmoor and the Lapua. Brass and ammo are certainly easier to get for the Creedmoor. But for discerning handloaders, the Lapua is much easier to load super accurate ammo for, no matter the range nor the purpose intended.
Not a very good comparison article. From 600 to 1000 yards, the creedmoor would have killed both of them by a long shot. Never mentioning the fact that the creedmoor is a short action cartridge and both the others are long. Also using one of the heaviest 6.5 bullets comparing to the other two cartridges and sways the performance metrics on this in favor of the others on short distance data. In short, bad article, cherry picked bullets, half truths, no standard comparison and a lack of ballistics knowledge contribute to a sub par article…
Hi Ethan, I appreciate your insights, but what I tried to compare were highest BC available bullets in each of the cartridges at maximum MV as indicated by Hornady, Nosler, Berger handloading manuals. I don’t know how I can get more fair than that. My objective was not to compare all short action or long action rounds, just popular deer hunting cartridges in order to give perspective to the 25-06 Rem. If we don’t compare the -06 to cartridges with similar ballistics, how can readers make an assessment? Now, comparing a 339 Lapua Mag. to a 6.5 CM — that would be an unfair comparison. Finally, I’m not selling 25-06s. I have one of those and 3 6.5 Creedmoors. I don’t care what you or anyone else shoots. I’m just sharing interesting data on cartridges so readers can make up their own minds. Cheers.
Mr. Spomer…
Good replies to some hostile folks, and some really nice ones, too. I appreciate the article, and did not realize that the 25-06 was as versatile as it is.
Thank you, and don’t worry about the loonies that come out of nowhere…that is where they live, in their Mom’s basement…
Thos. Fowler
Thank you, Thomas. I try to cut the writers of poorly advised comments some slack, understanding that everyone has a bad day now and then and that boorish behavior is enabled by the anonymity of this platform.
Yeah. BULLETS ARE ALSO MAGICALLY PULLING OFF “COME FROM BEHIND VICTORIES” YOU GUN-IGNORANT EMBARRASSMENT TO EVEN YOUR FELLOW “NOOBS”. JUST LIKE THERE HASN’T EVER BEEN A 6.5 mm “short-action” cartridge available EVER in the entire history of the world EVER and even if 6.5 Creedmoor were called “.264 Winchester SHORT” (as opposed to .264 Winchester MAGNUM which was 6.5 MILLIMETER AND A DAMN SIGHT “BETTER” SO-CALLED “LONG-RANGE CARTRIDGE” but is “unknow today) you’d STILL LOVE IT FOR ITS AMAZING AND MYSTERIOUS AND MAGICAL “LONG-RANGE CAPABILITIES” AND NOT JUST BECAUSE ALL YOUR “GUN EXPERT HEROES” AT THE RANGE AND GUN SHOWS AND GUN SHOPS AND BLOGS AND FSRUMS AND MAGAZINE ARTICLES AND YOUTUBE VIDEOS AND THE LIKE TOLD YOU TO GO OUT AND GET ONE AND THE COOL NAME SOLD YOU! You bet. You’re so INTO GUNS you don’t know about the other dozen or so 6-7mm commercial, proprietary and “wildcat” cartridges that have been around CLEARLY one HELL of a lot longer than you’ve been alive or at least been paying attention to guns. I’ll bet you’re a big .338 Lapua/.300 Blackout fan too, right? Or did that end when they “failed to be adopted” by the “U.S. military” and your dreams of “cheap available ammo” died with them? Or maybe your .338 Lapua died itself 1000-1500 “overpressure” rounds into your “long-range career” or your allowance wouldn’t/won’t cover “long-range shooting” with an “extreme long range” cartridge like .338 Lapua. Regardless, if you weren’t just a fanboy and had any concept of the whole reason we have about a billion different cartridges and more coming all the time is because NONE OF THEM ARE “PERFECT” OR EVEN “IDEAL” OR “ACCEPTABLE FOR EVERYONE AT ALL TIMES FOR ALL USES, you wouldn’t be here DEFENDING A CARTRIDGE LIKE IT MIGHT GET ITS FEELINGS HURT OR SOMETHING. What are you, 12 years old? Or more like 5 still believing in Santa and the Easter Bunny and that “machines” and “objects” are PEOPLE TOO? Got THOMAS THE TANK ENGINE TO GO WITH YOUR 6.5 CREEDMORE ISSUES, DO YOU?
Want me to jog on over to ShootersCalculator.com and “run some numbers” for you while you go take a nap and maybe have mommy rock you so you’re in a better mood when you get the truth as far as your little hypothetical “600-1000” fantasy Creedmoor comeback goes or are you “so over” 6.5 Creedmoor and on to the NEXT BIG THING CARTRIDGE that’s a REHASH somebody dug up from the past and is RERUNNING FOR FUN AND PROFIT BECAUSE FOOLS LIKE YOU CARE MORE ABOUT BEING “FASHIONABLE” THAN YOU DO ABOUT BEING FOOLS?
Take your li thi um….
Agreed Sam, I was wondering how the hell he didn’t blow a vessel and stroke out while typing. All I can picture is Jo Mama red faced and sweating profusely in his moms basement in nothing but his sh*t streaked whitey tighties. I am fairly certain his mom could have saved us all from that Hangry induced keyboard meltdown if she would have put a rush on his meatloaf.
I honestly think extremely few people actually read what you put down because you are always yelling. The simple fact is, no one likes to be yelled at. I have been reading this thread to get a better understanding and I honestly read half of your previous post and skipped this one completely.
Try to relax a bit my friend.
Don’t feed the trolls.
And what if C A T really spelled DOG? Guys go ask any animal killed by any of the calibers discussed what they thought about ballistics. Point is whether its 100 yds or 1000 yds make a clean kill shot and then brag about it. It is laughable to read all the negativity about all these calibers when they have all taken game. I understand without negative responses there would be no need to reply hence no stories to read or tell. If you shoot the 25.06 well shoot it same with all the other calibers. Practice makes perfect. Remember dead is dead the game animal you harvested could care less , they died from lead poisoning that’s all that matters. Shoot Straight
I agree, Gunnut, the game we take doesn’t care about ballistics. But we do because ballistics has a direct bearing on our ability to deliver the bullet to the target. That, not terminal performance, is what most of us worry our little heads over. It’s a bit arcane and overdone, but that’s what makes a serious hobby so interesting. Still, shooting straight is the best advice.
Hmmm…I have a delightful Remington 700ti in 30-06, an early version with the pencil barrel. Wonderful gun to carry, but when you unleash a stout .30 cal. Bullet you know you’ve done something of import! I’m no particularly Recoil shy, but less would be nice. Any recommendations on a good barrelmakerfor a tube to match that of my factory barrel’s profile, rifled for mid-to-heavy bullets, in stainless? Twist rates an style?
McGowen barrels can do all you wish. And even the 7mm-08 in that model hurt to shoot. I can’t imagine what a max load of Reloader 19 with a 200gr bullet would feel like coming from an ’06 in the 700 Titanium!
Get a threaded barrel so you can use a muzzle brake. I think that the positive aspects of a muzzle brake out way the negative aspects.
Your article has some value to people that have this cartiridge but its a long action cartridge with more power and shoots just that. The 6.5 Creedmoor is short action a shoots a better BC bullets. It will always be superior in ballistics and bullet choice IMHO.
Is the objective to target or match shoot or to cleanly and humanely kill an animal at a reasonable range? Caliber selection is a personal choice based upon goals and objectives. The 6.5, 270, 25-06 all seem to be able to kill game animals humanely within 300-400 yards. As will the .338, .300wm, 308 and 30-06. Thank you Ron for the informative article.
I think your article sucks Ronald .
You should compare cartridges with ballistically efficient projectiles of similar sectional density to make it a fair comparo .
My 6.5 Creedmoor loads changes your findings very favorably to the 6.5 for trajectory, drift & impact..
Well, I appreciate your opinion, Beau. But I don’t know how much fairer I could get than to compare the highest BC bullets I could find for each at the highest MVs for each. Comparing a 95-gr. in the 6.5 CM against, say, a 120-gr. in the 25-06 wouldn’t have been fair. Or velocities from a 20″ bl. in one and a 26″ in another. My objective was to explain what the 25-06 Rem is and put it in perspective for us average deer/elk/coyote hunters. Comparing it to well-known, similar MV and bullet weight rounds like the 6.5 CM and 270 Win. seemed reasonable. Would you have wanted me to compare it to a 223 Rem and 50 BMG?
Considering .25-06 burns up to 20 grains more powder than the 6.5 Creedmoor I would say the comparison is apples to smoked sausage. LoL
Now compare the “great” .25-06 to a 6.5 cartridge that uses almost the exact same powder charge (.264 Win Mag) and the .25-06 doesn’t look so outstanding.
Not that I think it’s a bad round. I actually think it is a neat cartridge but I believe in keeping comparisons comparable, if that makes sense.
Hi Jared. Yes, powder capacity is one way to rank/consider/compare cartridges. I prefer to compare based on relative uses, i.e. deer rounds as opposed to elephant rounds. In the vast middle ground of deer/elk cartridges most of us consider for our hunting, the 25-06 Rem. is as comparable as anything else from .243 Win through the 300 magnums. My intent is merely to provide readers with a good perspective on how things compare in MV, drop, drift and energy. And, contrary to the assumptions of many readers, I did not claim the 25-06 was a superior cartridge to the 6.5 Creedmoor. BTW, while tuning up some rifles for Branded Rock Canyon shooting school yesterday, I shot a Blaser R8 in 6.5 Creedmoor that clumped 4 Hornady 143-gr. ELD-X into .390″ at 100 yards. On the downside, the av. velocity was around 2,560 fps. Going to be a lot of drop to contend with.
Ron,
Great article! I would have never given the 25-06 a second look without it. However, your comments on creating longer, more slippery bullets, is the most interesting part of your article. I have on several occasions, after getting into the 6.5 game (creedmoor and grendel), wondered why bullet makers were not creating longer/heavier bullets for different calibers to achieve a higher b/c.
I know barrel twist could be an issue but longer bullets in necked down cartridges seems like a great fit. Why not work that magic in something like a 30-338 win mag for the large/dangerous game? One would assume the recoil would be more manageable and the round would be more accurate in the field (less windage). Perhaps my example isn’t the most ideal or wouldn’t fit a nitch, but I see the market going that way. I think some older cartridges will be revisited and some will regain popularity.
Justin, I believe high B.C. bullets will continue to proliferate and I hope rifle manufacturers will begin putting faster twist barrels on many older cartridges to meet shooter demand. The common complaint about long bullets intruding on powder space is much ado about nothing. I’m more than willing to give up a few fps MV in exchange for the superior ballistic performance of a high B.C. projectile.
I have a 25 Gibbs with a 26 in. Douglas air gauged barrel. The 264 win mag or the 257 wby. Don`t really shine all that much. the 6.5 Gibbs with a 140 wt. bullet, is something to behold.
20 grains more powder, huh? That’s odd given the fact that 6.5 Creedmoor is basically “.264 Winchester “Short” and nothing but a step above .243 and below .308 and .308 surely can’t do the same thing .30-06 does with “20 grains less powder”. You sure you’re not talking out of your hat there, gun expert? Never mind. I’ve got a Hornady manual right here. I don’t rely on internet “experts” for ANYTHING like even remotely “reliable” information when it comes to anything that goes bang. Not since the “cartridge of the month club” became the “illiterate tools who have no idea there hasn’t been a truly “new” cartridge created since the last truly new guns were created decades and centuries ago started running the “education system” of the “gun community”.
All these idiots singing the praises of the 6.5 creedmoor are like the bunch who claimed the 264 win mag was the ultimate long range elk round.Ha .It soon became a johnny come lately when remington commercialized the 7mm mag in the beautiful 700 .Anyone taking a 6.5 or 2506 for elk must have been dropped at lot as a infant.Anyone who hunts elk with either of these cartridges does not have any respect for the animal .There are a plethora of much better elk rounds out there guys .why do you tempt disaster by taking those 2 after elk.The minimum a guide worth his license will recommend is a 7 mag with 175 noslers.I know a guy who took a 300 weatherby stoked with 180 noslers and he never regretted it saying the bull took 2 180s through the lungs before piling up.All you guys are doing with your smallbores for elk is giving the animal rights assholes fuel when you lose animals cuz you bring too little a gun for the job.
Yeah but the 264 is burning more powder to go couple hundred fts faster and guess what you’ll burn riffleings out of it before the 25-06…
Hi Ron, I liked the article and I like your calm responses even better. It’s can be hard to keep a level head when everyone is a critic. You make it look easy. Keep up the good work… and thanks for in interesting thread.
I have used 30-06,7mm rem improved, 270, 25-06 and 6mm weatherby. I have still got the 25-06, excellent for Australian conditions. Buffalo excepted.
I’d be willing to tackle buf. with a 25-06 and the right bullet. A buddy and I took a couple of your Aus. buf. with 140-grain Failsafe bullets from 270 WSSMs about 12 years ago. Two shots on one, three on the other.
Seems to me that with all 6.5 frenzy going on right now the 6.5-06 would be a cartridge of great interest.
Thanks Gene. Good observation. I’ll cover the 6.5-06 in a future post.
6.5’s are popular today, but it’s still hard to get ammo for my 6.5×55. Pity it’s not interchangeable with the Creedmore, because that ammo’s everywhere.
ammoseek.com Plenty of 6.5×55
20 grains more powder, huh? That’s odd given the fact that 6.5 Creedmoor is basically “.264 Winchester “Short” and nothing but a step above .243 and below .308 and .308 surely can’t do the same thing .30-06 does with “20 grains less powder”. You sure you’re not talking out of your hat there, gun expert? Never mind. I’ve got a Hornady manual right here. I don’t rely on internet “experts” for ANYTHING like even remotely “reliable” information when it comes to anything that goes bang. Not since the “cartridge of the month club” became the “illiterate tools who have no idea there hasn’t been a truly “new” cartridge created since the last truly new guns were created decades and centuries ago started running the “education system” of the “gun community”.
UPDATE: As I figured you’re pretty much full of it. First of all for proposing a “comparison” between two intentionally “incomparable” cartridges and then for grossly generalizing the “data” and making yourself look like a fool in the process. As is typical of ALL cartridges its the LIGHTER BULLETS IN BOTH that are the “powder hogs” in terms of “energy per grain”. And while .25-06 can give 3500-3600 fps performance from its lightest bullets with powder charges in the mid-40s the AMAZING 6.5 Creedmoor with bullets 20-25 grains heavier uses similar charges of different powders (its PRICE PER POUND at least as much as CHARGE WEIGHT that determines “cost efficiency” of cartridges you Creedmoor fanboys have no qualms about throwing EXPENSIVE BULLETS AT TO SHOOT AT “LONG RANGE” TARGETS MOST OF YOU WON’T HIT A QUARTER OF THE TIME AT BEST but yet suddenly turn “conservative” about if one of a PILE of “competitors” in the 6-6.5mm “community” challenges your hero cartridge.
And if .25-06 is just too “wasteful” for you I can load up some .30-06 with similar powder charges to what Creedmoor needs for its “heavy” bullets and blow past those slugs like they’re standing still with the same amount of powder pushing a .308″ bullet. Or just use your beloved 6.5 Creedmoor’s TRUE “parent cartridge” .308 and do it. I say “true parent cartridge” because one of the endless “reliable sources” of “gun knowledge” online aka Wikipedia claims “.30TC” is the “parent cartridge” of 6.5 Creedmoor even though there isn’t nearly as much “family resemblance” compared to .308. They’ve also claimed that “.300 Savage” is the “parent cartridge” of .308 Winchester which is odd since I can make and have made .300 Savage cases out of .308 but I don’t think I can the “other way” since going from .308 to .300 Savage involved sizing and then trimming the cases to produce a shorter overall case/neck.
Back to the .25-06/6.5 comparison. Since 6.5 is one of Hornady’s very “expensive” babies that a HUGE amount of money was dumped into creating, promoting, shilling, propagandizing and “encouraging” manufacturers to chamber guns for its understandable that as usual with “close” competitor cartridges a REAL COMPARISON between DIFFERENT CALIBERS is impossible. Both have 100-grain SP bullets but not IDENTICAL 100-grain SPs since the .25-06 version is an “Interlock”. However, they’re close enough to do an apples to a different “breed” of apples comparison where .25-06 DOES NEED more powder to produce similar velocities but nowhere near the “20 grains” you claim. A LONG list of powders is applicable for each with ZERO overlap as expected since Hornady is SELLING 6.5 CREEDMOOR HARD AGAINST AN ALREADY CROWDED FIELD OF DIRECT COMPETITORS (if you’re interested in “saving powder” you should look into 6.5 Grendel) and you CAN “waste” 20 grains more powder on 25-06 if you want or you can “waste” more powder on 6.5 Creedmoor if you want depending on velocities. But the most “direct” and “fair” comparisons show 8-12 more grains of powder for .25-06 in the “mid-range” of velocities, accuracies and powder charges. Those 8-12 grains more powder in the .25-06 are going to cost you about 4-5 cents more per round.
And of course if I’m going “head to head” with the LEGENDARY LONG-RANGE POWERHOUSE 6.5 CREEDMOOR WITH A .25-06 I think I’ll go with the 75-grain bullets at 3500 or so fps which only takes another few cents worth of powder.
Or if I want to go Remington I could go .260 Remington and have a MUCH more direct and legitimate comparison? Shall we do THAT ONE and see how your super-cartridge fares?
Truth be told, a man riding by on a fast horse cannot tell the difference between the three. I love my 25-06 AI and I love my 270 WSM. Just don’t see how a 6.5 will add any value for my rifle hunting whitetails. I almost always carry my Mathews to the deer woods but still love to shoot. Great read.
Ear splitting muzzle blast that is uncomfortable even with ear plugs. This makes the 25-06 a no go for me! Yes it is flat, very accurate with mild recoil but no matter what, the super sharp muzzle blast is not comparable to the other firearms that were mentioned.
Kevin, I’d love to see some measured sound levels from the 25-06 and 270 Win. I can’t imagine how they would be much different given they both shoot the same volume of powder at nearly identical velocities. Regardless, wear ear plugs when you shoot any firearms, even 22 rimfire.
I’ve got a 25-284 on a Mauser action. Had it for around35 years. According to P.O.Ackley Handbook for Shooters, volume ll , it is similar to the 25-06 ballistically ,but is better adapted to a short action, hence 284 Winchester. According to Mr. Ackley, a 120 Gr bullet loaded over 50.5 grains of 4350 will achieve 3100 FPS. I no longer have dies for it, but I’ll bet I could probably get some from RCBS. I never had a chrono in those days, but it was a shooter for sure !!!
Ron,
This is simply a great article. Here’s another factor too; financial. Running a quick ammoseek check I can find a box of Winchester 6.5 125gr for $16.23. On the other side I can buy Privi 90gr 25-06 for $13.99/box. Yes, not a big difference, but who has only one box of ammo? It just means you pay less per pound of backstraps.
I grew up shooting Dad’s .25-06 at deer as a kid. Until the 6.5 CM came around I wouldn’t have considered another gun. Fun memories for me and a really great round that sadly seems to be fading into the background. My father also killed an elk with his, so more evidence if needed that 120 grains can kill most anything on hooves.
Love your article. Thanks for throwing the numbers together for us.
I think the other stand out in this comparison is the humble 270 Win. It at least equals if not betters the 6.5 Creedmore with identical/similar weight bullets. i do note that the current Hornady range includes a 145gr ELD-X with the BC (G1) = .536 which ought to do significantly better than the bullet listed.
With the popularity of the 270, second only to its parent case, this ought to suit a lot of hunters out there with rifles chambered to this outstanding cartridge.
I built two rifles for my North American battery: A 25-06 and .35 Whelen.
It’s good to be a little different.
Once these guys talk you out of 25-06 being legitimate, please send your brass my way.
I appreciate your sentiment, Christian. Good two choices for all N.A. But don’t hold your breath on the brass. I’m keeping mine!
I like the idea of the .35 Whelen mainly because it’s so different. .35 calibers just haven’t caught on. As far as I know only Marlin still makes rifles chambered for the .5 Remington, and I bet they don’t set any sales records, the .358 Winchester survives only in the BLR and the .350 Remington Magnum is obsolescent. It looks as if the Whelen could well be the last survivor.
Peter, you are right on. 35 calibers seem to be stuck in never-never land. We rally round the .30s, a few .338s for elk and moose, but then jump right to .375 for any larger game. I’ve yet to hunt with a 35 Whelen, but have taken some feral hogs and coyotes with a 358 Win. Nice round.
Well with superformance Hornady ammo in my 35 whelan. I am shooting less than one inch groups at 100 yards and dropping large game with one shot. Love the superformance ammo.
I read an article some years back about the “efficiency” of cartridges. The 35’s were top dogs and the worst was anything in a 7mm magnum.
I’m afraid the author of that piece missed the mark, David. The 264 Win. Mag., 220 Swift, 26 Nosler would be less efficient than most 7mm magnums. And some 375s, 416s and 458s would be more efficient. It’s really not about 7mm or even 6.5mm so much as powder volume vs. bore diameter. The larger the powder charge and smaller the bore, the lower the efficiency. Regardless, my take on efficiency is “so what?” The truck I drive to my hunts is inefficient, too. When I need to deliver a bullet to collect my game, I’m not concerned about efficiency so much as ballistic performance. If burning an extra 10 grain of powder makes the difference between hit and miss, I’ll burn it. Of course, with laser rangefinders and a known ballistic curve, shooters can make relatively slow, efficient cartridges do the job. Fortunately, we US citizens have the option to choose among dozens of cartridges and rifles. So, whatever you choose to shoot, efficient or inefficient, enjoy!
Great article! Too bad it was wasted on creed lovers! I own, shoot and reload the 6.5 CM, .25-06 and 270 WIN. All are special and unique ballistically in my opinion. I have and will continue to use my guns as tools…as in the right tool for the right job! Whatever that job might be. Cheers.
Over the years I have owned, among others, a 30/06, two .308s, a 7mmRemMag, two .270s, two 6.5 Swedes, a .260Rem, a .257 Roberts, two 25/06s, a 6mmRem and a couple of .243s…
I am a hunter not a target shooter, and I would probably not take a shot past 400yds.
Because I am not a big guy at 5’6″, I have elected to keep my actions mostly short these days..
Because I am no longer young, I will never again own a 30/06, .308, 7mmRemMag or a .270.
I still have a 6.5 Swede, a .260 Rem. and a .243, which cover all my needs…
I prefer the killing performance of a 25/06 over a .270 any day, and would consider owning another if I had a use for it… and I still regret selling the .257Roberts!
Ron, what is the point of this article? Are you suggesting someone looking to buy a rifle that would take most North American game pick one in 25-06? Would that be the best choice? In reality, the hot cartridges of this decade may be gone in the next decade. On paper, your stats on the 25-06 look good. In reality, I still prefer the 270. First, it is available where ever ammo is sold. Can the same be said of the 25-06? What about bone crushing power? You compared the 25-06 at 115 gr. to the 270 at 145 gr. Which is more likely to break shoulder bones on an Elk? As you know, cartridges come and go, but the classics endure. The 270 is and will continue to be a classic. There is a reason for that. It is a great all around cartridge. In practical terms, if you had to buy just one rifle would you recommend that be in 25-06?
The point of this article is to examine the history and performance of the 25-06 Remington cartridge and put it in perspective. Readers can make up their own minds about its suitability for their brand of hunting. I compare it to a couple of “middle -of-the-road” popular hunting cartridges to enhance relevancy. I think that too often we hunters/shooters compare cartridges by bullet weight, velocity and “reputation” more than by physical performance numbers like drop, drift and remaining energy. So long as MV and bullet BC are identical, so are drop and drift regardless of weight. The heavier of the two will always carry more energy at all distances. How much difference that retained energy makes on the target depends on where it is struck, the construction of the bullet that strikes it, and the physical condition of the animal at the time of the impact. I would not recommend the 25-06 Rem. as the world’s best all-round, do-everything cartridge. But for anyone needing a deer/antelope/sheep/coyote/rock chuck/hog round with some elk hunting thrown into the mix, it’s certainly as good a contender as the 270 Win., 6.5 Creedmoor and many similar rounds. I might consider it an ideal mule deer/coyote/antelope round.
Good point Ron. However, consider the 6 mm Rem versus the 243 Win. The 6 mm looks better on paper than the 243, but good luck finding ammo for it. I think ammo availability is an important point. Even though I am a scientific kind of guy, being a physicist, I prefer the 243 because I can get ammo for it almost everywhere ammo is sold. If I want to sell the rifle down the road, which I rarely do, the 243 would retain more value. The reason is it’s popular. The 243’s “reputation” makes it easier to sell. By the way, I never used the phrase “world’s best all-round, do-everything cartridge.” You set up a strawman and then shot it down. Here is what I said: “In practical terms, if you had to buy just one rifle would you recommend that be in 25-06?” Based on your answer, I think you would. I can respect that, but I also disagree.
Louis: Good observations re. the 6mm Rem. and 243 Win. Those are valid reasons for selecting one cartridge over another. In most of my “ballistic” and cartridge description articles like this 25-06 piece, I’m addressing history and performance characteristics rather than more pragmatic concerns such as ammo cost or availability, trusting that readers can assess these on their own. I am not advocating for one cartridge over the other. As stated in the last paragraph of my 25-06 post, “…the old 25-06 Remington runs neck and neck with the 270 Win. and 6.5 Creedmoor. If you have a 25-06, celebrate it. If you don’t, start shopping. The 25-06 Remington is one of the mildest recoiling, flattest shooting, wind defying, overlooked medium hunting cartridges in our arsenal.” Last but not least, in reply to your previous letter I wrote that I MIGHT consider the 25-06 AN (not THE) mule deer/coyote/antelope round. So, please, do not buy one under the mistaken assumption that I think it ideal. Heck, I can’t even make up my own mind about which cartridges are ideal. Darned if I’m going to start telling others what is best for them! Whatever rounds and rifles you ultimately choose, Louis, I’m wishing you successful shooting and pleasant times afield!
Thank you for your reply, Ron. I generally share your views. If someone owns a 25-06, then great. Enjoy the rifle. Having read much on the 25-06, it undoubtedly has its merits. However, my advice to someone who is starting out in our sport would be to buy a rifle in a classic caliber, not the latest trend setter. Therefore, my vote would go to the 270, not the 25-06 or 6.5 Creed, even though both are highly regarded in the shooting community. As far as recoil, that is a matter of muzzle energy, as you know. The 270 with a 140 gr. bullet has about 2700 ft-lbs of energy, 25-06 with a 120 gr. about 2400 ft-lbs. Therefore, the 25-06 has about 10% less recoil than a 270, in theory. Felt recoil will depend on numerous other factors, such as rifle weight and the recoil pad. When I am hunting, I am not aware of recoil. My focus is on making a good shot. At the bench, after shooting a box of almost any caliber, I become aware of recoil. That is my reality. Will the 25-6 become a classic? In fifty years or so, we will know. I truly enjoy your articles and I am sure others do as well. Many who read your article may not have much experience. For example, I have never gone to Africa, but your articles on African hunting are a good primer and are also “pragmatic.” For what it is worth, I suggest you consider adding a paragraph or two on the pragmatic aspects of any cartridge you review for those new to the sport. I also know that no shooting topic garners more controversy than one comparing the merits of a cartridge. Look at all the comments you received on this article. Everyone has their own idea of the best cartridge for a given category of game. I’m sure you knew your article would stir some controversy, as it did, and your comments are fair. I also wish you and your readers “successful shooting and pleasant times afield!”
LOUIS, Good idea on the pragmatic aspects of cartridges. I’ll try to do that in future posts!
great article, honest with facts to back it up,, i have been shooting, loaded up 6.5 swedes for years and they pretty much are identical to the 6.5 creedmore,,and have shot 25-06s for as long,, always seemed to me the 25-06 shot flatter and hit harder, and did a little more damage on game,,,and was just as accurate as the 6.5s,,,now i only shoot out to around 600 yards, but thats far enough for either cartridge on game shooting,,,,and while i like the 6.5s ,i think the 25-06 is the better cartridge,,,,
Having owned all three of your subjects, I enjoyed your fine article comparing them. The .25-06 is a great cartridge as you pointed out and is one of my favorites. If you are looking for a higher BC bullet for the quarterbore, take a look at the JLK 108 VLD with its .50 BC. JLK bullets are great projectiles for paper or game.
A VLD .257 would be welcomed, Mike, but is there a typo in JLK 108 VLD? I think you’d need more like a 128-gr. in .257 to make .50 BC.
Ron ———-
Interesting comment about looking at the 6.5-06(like that cartridge).
Perhaps a future article would be an evaluation and comparison of 6.5-06 vs. 6.5-284 Norma Mag ?
Keep up the good articles !!!
JPT
Thanks for the article, Ron. On thing you didn’t touch on was barrel life. To achieve that flat trajectory, the 25-06 is leaving the barrel at 3150 fps. The 6.5 Creed is doing a “paltry” 2750. That difference in MV is going to keep the 6.5 shooting accurately for a lot longer than the 25-06. If you only shoot a buck every year with the 25-06, maybe you don’t care, but if you like to shoot it on a regular basis, you’ll be looking at rebarreling at a faster rate. The high BC of the 6.5 will help it retain its velocity and total energy longer, which compensates somewhat for the lower MV. All three of these have a max point blank range of about 300 yards, which is generally sufficient for most hunting shots. If you want to shoot anything beyond that range, you better be ranging it and using a ballistic table to adjust the shot, whatever the round, and at those distances, a wind call becomes much more significant.
Anyway, as I said, good article. I think I’d buy the 6.5 Creed for the weight savings of a short action combined with reasonable availability of factory loads.
Right you are, Dave. My take on the barrel life issue, however, is like this: if my objective is to have a barrel last forever, I’ll shoot a 22 rimfire. When I’m gearing up for a big game hunt in which energy and longer range performance could make the difference between venison and tag soup, to heck with barrel life! Hunters have been choosing low barrel life for 100 years. That said, if I were trying to win long range shooting competitions with a rifle/barrel that remained accurate and consistent for thousands of rounds, but all means, barrel life matters. BTW, your comments on point blank range are spot on. The additional reach we get from magnum velocities (BC being the same) is the reason they’re of benefit to hunters. It’s not the extra energy. Good points, Dave. Thanks.
If energy is really what you’re after, then you really want the .270, no? Or the 6.5 Creed. The 25-06 is just a small bullet pushed to high velocity, which therefore shoots slightly flatter. But that doesn’t matter much at hunting distances inside 300 yards. But the 25-06 bullet is lighter and won’t carry the same energy down range when all is said and done.
So, advantages of the 25-06:
1. Shoots flat
Disadvantages of the 25-06:
1. Relatively more obscure, which means higher prices or forces hand loading
2. Lower carried energy down range
3. Shorter barrel life
I guess I’m not seeing the attraction of the 25-06. If you like playing with obscure cartridges, that’s fine, but there is nothing to particularly recommend the 25-06 beyond the flatter trajectory, which I think isn’t as big of an advantage for normal hunting distances inside 300 yards. For everything else, I’d go in favor of the 6.5 or the .270, with the advantage to the 6.5 for weight savings of the short action.
Dave, my article on the 25-06 wasn’t written to slight the 270 or 6.5 CM, nor to recommend the 25-06 over them. It was written to compare the three so that readers could better appreciate how closely 25-06 performance matches them. As the ballistic data in my article shows, 25-06 does indeed shoot flatter. It’s energy comes within 200 f-p of the 270 Win. at 600 yds and deflects in 10 mph wind only 2 inches more than the 6.5 CM. To me the differences among all these are insufficient to declare any vastly superior. You and all shooters are wise to consider such pragmatic concerns as ammo availability, price, etc. I handload so… As for shorter barrel life, unless you’re shooting hundreds of rounds a year, a 25-06 should last a lifetime or more. I don’t worry about bl. life in hunting rifles. I don’t worry much about downrange energy, either, since energy doesn’t kill unless you strike central nervous system, and then a 22 LR will usually do the trick. Regardless what you choose, I hope it works well for you!
Nice article Ron, My father shot a Ruger #1b in 25-06. He had shot many Michigan bucks with it. Before Alzheimer’s took him away my father wanted my wife to have that rife. That 25-06 rem is in good hands . Mary has shot whitetails and antelope with confidence . No fuss or muss. Just flat lays animals out.
THANK YOU AGAIN RON
Ron, that is what the JLK website states, .50 BC and 108 grain bullet. Check it out….
I have their 80 grain VLD .224 with a BC of .51 and their 105 VLD 6mm with a .56 BC. I have not ordered the 108 in .257 yet.
Mike, I checked the JLK website and you are correct. They are advertising a 108-gr. .257″ bullet they rate .500. Now I have to be convinced this BC rating is accurate. The picture of the bullet sure doesn’t scream .50 BC to me. But the proof is in the pudding. Has anyone tested this .50 BC claim on the range? Maybe JLK uses gold instead of lead?
It’s refreshing to see caliber advice that’s actually useful. Not like the item I read online recently that recommended the 300 Savage as a fine deer caliber. It surely is, but considering it hasn’t been chambered in any new rifles for almost twenty years it’s scarcely a practical choice!
I bought my first .25-06 last year, a Model 70 Winchester Sporter with a 24-inch bbl. and used it to hunt mule deer, whitetails and turkeys. I topped the rifle with a Leupold 4-12x scope, with long-range duplex crosshairs that can take a shooter out to 500 yards with ease. With this particular rifle, a 100 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, driven by 53 grains of VitaVourhi 160 powder will top 3,300 fps and group extremely tight for me. Better, the bullet’s impact on big game is exceptional. Here in South Dakota, I took a nice mule deer spot-and-stalk with it, followed by a really nice East River whitetail. That bullet really does the job. I’ve also had some good group success — equal to the 100 gr. NBTs, and striking very close to their zero point so there’s no adjustment — with 115 gr. Berger VLD Hunting bullets, but I’m not nuts about their performance on that muley. The Noslers brought him down, the Bergers did not, despite a well placed shot. Perhaps the Bergers need a bigger, harder target, like an elk to offer peak performance. Botom line: I’ve become a major fan of this “old” cartridge and my new rifle and look forward to doing a whole lot more hunting this year with it — pronghorn tag in particular. I still love my 7 mags — a S&W 1500 bought in 1982 that shoots like dream with 140 gr. NBTs driven by RL22, and Model 70 Super Grade from 1989 that shoots 150 gr. Nosler Long Range Accubonds with alacrity. But that .25-06 is my go to deer and antelope rifle now.
BIBS makes a 110gr .257 bullet with a BC of .52. I have not attempted to hunt with them leaning toward the partitions with my 25-06.
Ron:
you sure have touched a cord with this one. i love how possessive we all get about our favorite rifle/caliber choices. You would have fared better and received less vile spewing if you had insulted our wives! You are too much of a gentleman for that.
great article though, I loved it.
have not had much experience with the 25.06 till this past July in Namibia. Using a borrowed 25.06 with 117 grain Nosler BT handloaded to just over 3000 fps I was able to take 24 head of game with 25 shots. the 52 inch Kudu bull took two, and i am not sure why once we saw the placement of the first shot. i must admit that the first 19 were brain shots, as I was culling for meat. One was a mountain zebra body shot entered behind the last rib. The bullet was found in the back of the lung on the off side. As you know these are big bodied animals. I was impressed. Being a huge fan of the 7MM Rem mag I would have preferred 160 or 175 grain Partitions or Swift A-Frames but the 25.06 proved worthy of the task.
People talk of barrel life but most will never shoot out a good barrel. Years ago my Namibian “brother” registered a Kreiger, cut rifled barreled Sako action, 7MM Rem Mag i had built. I asked him to keep track of how many rounds he put through it. He culled oryx mostly. He cleaned the rifle after every day’s use, and he logged all shots including periodic site ins.
His bullet of choice was 150 grain Nosler BT. We finally replaced the barrel after 4000 rounds because the groups opened up to 2 inches at 100 meters.
Good job, Ron. I realize I am replying a little late to this article. Very well written article. I have had a 25-06 (S&W M1500) since I was fourteen and living out in South Dakota. At the time it was the right gun for taking pronghorn and deer. I think it is still one of the best choices for shooting in the western part of South Dakota. Load a little lighter bullets for the pronghorn and a little heavier bullets for the deer. The 25-06 can also be loaded lighter than the 6.5 Creedmoor and 270 for going after coyote or even prairie dogs. The 75 grain Hornady VMax makes a mess out of anything it hits. It really comes down to what the end user wants to do with the gun. The 6.5 Creedmoor is an awesome short action round. I have two .308 guns (AR10 and bench rest gun) that have a hard time keeping up with the Creedmoor but are still very good and can handle heavier bullets. What the industry has realized is that there is a niche for the 6.5 Creedmoor and short action variants. They work well both in AR platforms and bolt guns and that means more volume and an easier business decision about promoting a new mainstream “wildcat” round. What has changed a bit in the USA is that there is more competition target shooting now than ever before involving more of the general public and this also plays into what becomes the next best cartridge. It is all good. Whatever promotes shooting either for hobby, sport, or hunting is good for all of us. Get out and enjoy whatever shooting activity you are involved in.
I am planning on picking up a TC Compass in 6.5 Creedmoor to experiment with. Currently going for $225 after rebate from several retailers. Imagine a gun that can perform out to 1000 yards for sub $250 minus scope. We will see how it works out. I reload all of my ammo so it gives me an opportunity to have some more fun with statistical trial and error setting up some new loads. A little cost for reloading startup for the 6.5 Creedmoor but I will recoup the cost soon.
Cheers,
David
I like your philosophy, David.
25-06 is a dead caliber for many reasons.. comparing calculations to reality is just that.
Ask Jerry Miculek why, of all the guns and calibers, he chose 6.5 Creedmoor in a TC Compass for his successful African hunt???????????
Did Mr. Miculek have a T/C logo on his clothing or is he receiving compensation for using that rifle? Was there a T/C cameraman nearby filming the hunt? Was he comped the hunt due to his reputation? Nice that he had a successful safari. My son and I have hunted the Limpopo area of South Africa three times. No cameras. No sponsors. We paid. All we had was a Ruger .30-06 and wonderful hosts. When we go back in 2019 to “Free State” South Africa…my Rem 700 .25-06 will be along. It’s becoming very popular there. Our PH is building one right now and he used a .270 for years before we met him. Match the cartridge to the hunt with the PH’s permission. The 6.5 CM is a newer cartridge with minimal history in South Africa. It was likely an advertising safari. The 7×57(Jack O’Connor’s favorite) and 6.5x55SE are much more popular there.
Its great to hear about the 25-06, its been a go to rife for years for me. The other rife i use is the 284 win, and it will do better in all bullets weights then a 25-06.
Around 1985 I owned an 8 X 57 Chilean Mauser. I did not enjoy hunting with it because of the military sights. I was determined to either have it converted to a sporting rifle or sell it. I asked the opinion of my gunsmith as I wanted something different (not a bread-and-butter cartridge). He suggested the .25-06 and I have never looked back. This cartridge will do anything I will ever require of it with less recoil.
I found a hardly used Ithaca gun company import of a Tikka in 25-06 that’s production # put it at around 1975. It came with factory 1″ rings. I replaced the b & l scope with a Sightron big sky 3-9. Took a nice buck in Northeast WA first year out. Beautifully crafted rifle and a great bullet. Always like hearing more about the under utilized 25-06.
I just came across your article tonight and what a great read, especially for a 25-06 guy. The numbers back up what 25-06 shooters know, it just plain works and works very well.
I own rifles in all three calibers, the 6.5 Creedmoor, 270 Winchester and the 25-06. It was very easy to get caught up in all that I was reading and just had to try the Creed. After extensive hand loading and target shooting to ring out all its greatness I found one grounding revelation. You pull the trigger, it goes bang and you feel the recoil that is about the same in all three calibers. That is when I realized the confidence and success I have gained over the years hunting with the 25-06 due to it’s hard hitting, fast killing, flat shooting and light recoiling performance has made me realize I am satisfied. The Creed will likely find a new home and the 270 will likely be barreled to 25-06.
Thanks for the great article Ron!
That was a great read. Along with your comparisons I loved all the comments it brought. I also have
3 rifles in 25-06, along with the other calibers in the mix. I guess I consider my guns as big boy toys
and love them all. Each gun seems to have a story, a special hunt, a special time, a perfect shot made.
I reload for each one and that makes each round an accomplishment. As one response mentioned-you
pull the trigger,it goes bang,you feel the recoil- thats the same in all. (except the 378 Weatherby-FEEL)
I would say to all, if you like what you are shooting, keep getting better with it. If you need a lighter
recoiling, flat shooting, gophers to elk rifle- the 25-06 is a great choice.
Ron-
Some observations…After reading all the previous comments there seems to be a common difference between what the compared cartridges are used for. One group are the hunters who use and rely on them and another group who enjoy slaying steel plates or targets at long distance. Sometimes the interests merge. The hunters use the .25-06 for it’s intended purposes. What really makes it perform is the quality of the newer hunting bullets. The bullets available today are so consistent, aerodynamic and durable they really bump up the .25-06 into .270 performance. It doesn’t have the highest BC, but so what. The long distance shooters need the higher BC for their targets and it seems like it’s never enough..like expensive optics on more expensive rifles. When Remington standardized the .25-06 in 1969(I was in high school) nobody was talking about a computer designed 6.5 CM. But we all read the stories of Jack O’Connor and his 7×57 or .270 every month in his articles. Your article is well founded and researched, but it’s like campfire conversations comparing what’s the best deer cartridge, truck, and whiskey. I enjoyed your video using the .25-06 and Nosler BT. We have walked the same dirt with the same load with the same outcome.
Hi Ron
Very good article and very interesting. I was wondering which catridge would make the best deer catridge between the 25-06, 6.5 cm and 7-08. With the « new » monolitic TTSX Barnes and after reading your article, the 25-06 seems to have the velocity and power to be a very very nice deer catridge. My father was an outfiter on Anticosty when I was a teenager and I loved to hunt deers with a 300 Savage, light and no recoil, I would think the 25-06 would be better. Two questions: 1) is a long action rifle better in bolt action compared with a short action? 2) can we compare the 270 win with a 25-06 and a 6.5 cm? Here in Quebec, Canada, the king of the game is Moose. Most people considers a 270 win a moose catridge and not a « medium » game catridge below 300 yards. Over 300 yards, we use magnums. I killed a moose a month ago with a 270 win and a 130 gr TTSX bullet. DRT kill! ( however the moose was only at 70 yards, he came on my calls, wonderful hunt!!! My father and uncles hunt moose with 270 win also. When a read Barnes ballistics on their website, their TTSX for the 25-06 has only 1600 ft at 200 yards and well below 1500 at 300 yards. The 270 win has 1900 ft at 200 yards and still 1600 ft power at 300 yards. Therefore, it seems that the 25-06 and 6.5 are more « deer rifles » and the 270 win more a moose rifle up to 300 yards. Can we compare the first two with the 270 win? Sorry for my english, I am French Canadien! Again Ron, thank you for your great articles! Martin
Martin, your English is a lot better than my French, oui? “Best” deer cartridge is highly debatable. All you mentioned will more than suffice. The 25-06 and 270 Win. will shoot flatter than the 6.5 CM with most bullet options. I’d choose my rifles based on the reach I wanted and not worry about energy. The right bullet in the vitals will terminate a moose. I’ve taken 54″ to 60″ bulls with bullets as light as 120-grain in 6.5mm. I wouldn’t hesitate to use a 25-06 Rem. on one. Just be sure to choose bullets designed to penetrate deeply. And park them in the right place!
Great article. I have owned a 25/06 remington 700 bdl for tha last 21 years. Ive killed over 80 deer, probably 50 hogs, javelinas, coyotes. Farthest shot was probably 350 but the vast majority at or under 200. All my kills have been 1 shot dead on the spot kills. Sight it 3” high at 100 and crosshairs will be good till 300 with no need for holdover. Im partial to 120 grain nosler partitions. To each his own. To me accuracy and shot placement are more important than downrange energy. Biggest game in my habitat (south texas) is nilgai and i wouldnt hesitate to shoot one in the neck or take a quartering away shot inside 200.
I use and have loaded for the 25/06 since 1987. I bought a Remington model 700 Classic in 25/06 with
a 24″ barrel
It consistently shot 3/4″ groups at 100yards with about any 100gr or 120gr bullets
I bought the then new Nosler reloading manual #4 and loaded my first cartridges.
100gr, Nosler Ballistic tips 54gr. of 4831sc with bullets .10 off rifling.
Many clover leaf groups and smaller groups later I thought I was the reloading king of the world( HA Ha boy was I naive!)
My chronograph averaged 5 shot groups at 3440fps. This is faster than the book and under max powder at the time ( fast gun?)
I neck sized brass and reloaded a single piece of brass 11 times.
A new primer would still seat with resistance. I only shorten this brass twice but a shiny ring
was formed 1/2″ up from the base of the cartridge. That many loading would seam to indicate pressure was OK.
The 25/06 is ALREADY a classic in the plains states if not the whole U.S.. There is not much more American than a quarter bore. In the Dakotas ammo is on every shelf that carries ammo.
That being said the 270 is a classic and as American as apple pie. The Creedmoor looks like a winner and I welcome it and all the new shooters it brings to the field.
Good look at the cartridge.
WOW. Kinda like saying my wife is prettier than yours, HUH!! I like them all. .243 is a good one too. Would like to see some data on a 6.5-06 and 6.5 x 300 WSM. Think I’ll surprise the wife with a 6.5 CM and treat myself to a 25-06. Thanks Ron for the article.
Ron, I loved this article. When I first started hunting I went through the 30-30 and 30-06 rifles. I had problems with them due to recoil. I wore contacts at the time and at the bench I would slip a contact almost each time I fired, so I wore glasses while hunting. Then I got to shoot a Rem BDL 243 I shot better didn’t slip contacts, and started clovering shots. Shooting actually became fun. Then in the earliy ninties I bought a BDL 25-06 no slipage, and clovered shots. Life is gooder. Started hunting with some guys on a lease where there were hogs and having never having any experience with hogs I ask what calibers others were shooting. They mostly shot 7MM, & 30-06, one even said you had to use a 180 grain 30-06 to kill them. There was a older fella there and I ask what he used. He simply said 223. I ask him how he could kill a hog with a 223 when others used much larger bullets. He simply said; If you shoot them in the ear they don’t go far; I had my challenge.
Over the years me and my little 25-06 have harvest many deer and hogs and even a mule deer simply because I know exactly what that gun is going to do. I shoot a couple of boxes of shells through it yearly just for fun and if I pull one I know it’s me. I picked up a 270 recently and am getting to the same level of confidence with it that I have with my 243 and 25 but my 25 will never leave my side. I am glad I read this because validates the effectiveness I have seen in my 25, and to all the nay sayers out there just Shoot- em-in-the-ear .
Excellent report Burns. So pleased you’ve enjoyed so much success with your rifles. You’ve learned what so many have not. Congrats.
Well, what happened to the 6.5-06? That would solve the lack of high BC bullet problem. I never understood why the 6.5-06 never caught on more. It is better than the Creedmoor and I’m pretty sure better even than the 6.5-284 Norma. Would love to know.
Damn Ron, you really stirred it up with this article! Never had the chance to shoot a 25-06, but I will say Shelly’s 6.5 Creedmoor is an absolute tack-driver. I’ll show you when you invite me for a deer hunt, lol.
I’ve no doubt her 6.5 CM drives tacks, but virtually any cartridge will do that with the right rifle and ammo. Its the basic ballistics that separate the good, bad, and ugly. And the degrees of separation are not much in most cases.
Your basic comparison of a 115 grain 25/06 to a 143 grain 6.5 is bias. Compare at least to the same bullet weight and see if it can hold its own then? The 6.5 with less powder and heavier bullet still holds its own even with your built in bias.
I appreciate your concern, Bruce, but there are no 143-grain options in .257 caliber and a 115-grain in .264 will not provide the high B.C. that makes the heavier .264s so effective. You’ll certainly flatten the 6.5 CM trajectory. A better option is to try to match the B.C. of both bullets and then maximize muzzle velocity in both. The larger powder capacity of the 25-06 suggests it would win. But this doesn’t mean I’m biased against the 6.5 CM. I merely publish these pieces to showcase and compare for my reader’s edification. I have one 25-06 and four 6.5 CMs and no axe to grind against either.
I’m kinda with Bruce, here. If I was shooting at an Elk at 300 yards and ….. if I have the choice of the faster .25-06 with a 115 grain bullet and a similar shaped bullet 6.5 CM with a 140 or 143 grain bullet, I believe that I would go with the bullet weight. Three weeks ago I chose the 6.5 CM over the .25-06 and the 6.5 CM because of the bullet weight choices and the recoil.
What the naysayers of your article don’t understand is that you are pointing out gun and ammo behavior, not trying to force them into a certain caliber. They can buy all sorts of caliber bullets in all types of guns. I did!
Ron,
Great article. Just found your site. I always enjoy your articles in the WOJ. I have a 25-06 and love it though I would love it more if I could get some slick high BC bullets for it. I would rebarrel to a faster twist in a sec. I’m not sure what all of this obscurity talk is all about. When I first got mine (about 6 years ago) I wasn’t hand loading yet and never had trouble finding factory ammo. I have been doing everything I can to get some higher BC .257 bullets. I have talked to the major manufacturers at trade shows, written emails, below is a link to a thread I started.
https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/high-bc-bullet-gap.168027/
I know this is a can of worms, but to me, were there a high BC 130 gr. bullet option; the 25-06 would be the best all around (varmint to deer, maybe elk) cartridge out there. Sure some will shoot flatter, some will hit harder…. but for someone who wanted one rifle to do it all, it would be hard to beat. I run the 115 Bergers at well over 3200 fps. I think you could get to 130s over 3000 fps without any trouble. In a high bc design that would be well into the .6s bc wise. To push a bullet with that bc that fast in a 6.5 you are talking about 264 win mag territory and all the additional recoil that comes with that jump.
I hope you championing this cause is more successful than my meager efforts have been. It is an uphill battle with the current 6.5 craze.
Great article. I have been shopping for a new middle weight gun and this article has definitely got me thinking and researching. Keep up the good work.
Loved the artical. My 25 is savage varmeter. SS fluted barrel 26″ with break. Loads 115 berger at 2980. Holding firm groups at 4″ at 600 yards. Have learned to hold for slight earth rotation on this and longer ranges. Hole on hole at 100.
Thanks again for the boost for the great 25 tacker.
Vern hughes
Let me tell you something junior (Ron). You are NO Jack O’Connor by any means. That means any comment you make when compared to Mr. O’Connor’s, if they contradict is a dumb one. Jack O’Connor said plainly, across the board, no cartridge out performs the 270 in the field against multiple game. No, the 25-06 does not out perform the 270. This is your opinion and your choice. I am in my mid 50’s and have been in the field all my life. One of the elderly gentlemen who taught me shot a 25-06. It is a good load and I am glad you like it. But don’t ever contradict Jack O’Connor. Your knowledge in comparison to his is like ……. a bad comparison.
My goodness, Joel. What a response to a simple article. I’m sorry if I offended your hero, but I don’t recall ever claiming to be Mr. O’Connor, whom I admired and still do. That said, I will continue to study and research guns and ammo and bullets and ballistics and report what I discover. If it happens to contradict Mr. O’Connor, Mr. Keith, Boddington, Atkins or any other authority I’ll rest my case on physics and facts. You might want to check out my next blog (scheduled to post Sunday, Dec. 10, 2017) that compares the 270 Winchester against the 6.5 Creedmoor. I’ve a hunch you might like it. By the way, If Mr. O’Connor really did say no cartridge outperforms the 270 in the field against multiple game, he was wrong. Many can and do. Still, the 270 Win. is a great round suitable for just about anything short of dangerous game. With the right bullet, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it on bears, moose, eland. In fact, a buddy and I once used the 270 WSM with 140-gr. Fail Safe bullets to terminate a pair of massive bull water buffalo in Australia. The only thing that WSM has over the 270 Win. is about 100 fps.
No offense intended, Ron, but should someone in their “mid 50’s” really be referring to you as “Junior?”
(If not, then maybe you should begin marketing your skin care regimen on this site. You have Joel fooled!)
Joel has been out standing, in his field for more than 50 years. Time to go back to the house, Joel.
I would like to share the 25-06 article
Great article, Ron! I’ve long been a fan of the .25-06 because of the ballistics. I started studying it when my Dad gave me his 700 in that caliber that he purchased in the mid-70’s. I’ve always wondered why it is not more in favor, but after having been in this business for a few decades, I’ve come to realize that it is no less fashionable or trendy than the runways of Paris. And opinions are often based on little more than current likes. I appreciate this type of article with numbers and facts.
Thanks again for all you’ve contributed to this industry over the years.
By the way, I think Mr. O’Connor would appreciate this article as well :)
The bottom line is that “6.5 Creedmoor” was chosen because none of the companies involved in “creating” that “new” cartridge cared for “.264 Winchester”, which is what Creedmoor really is. Not .264 Winchester MAGNUM of course. And its not like there aren’t a PILE of other 6-6.5mm cartridges that can be compared to it and VERY FAVORABLY IN MOST CASES. Hell, .243 Winchester comes to mind. But if we’re going “Remington vs. Winches…I mean “Creedmoor” then lets do the OBVIOUS AND MUCH CLOSER ONE and have a .260 Remington vs. 6.5 Creedchester (Winmoor just ain’t gonna “fit” the results of most comparisons involving that supposed “super cartridge”) comparison. Both short-action, within .005″ bullet diameter, WAY MORE “OVERLAP” in bullet weights and types between them, etc.
Or maybe 6.5 Creedmoor guys just prefer to let their “shooting” do their talking. I mean you can’t TELL THEY DO by how much time they spend whining and crying and “defending” a freaking CARTRIDGE LIKE ITS GOT FEELINGS EVEN MORE SENSITIVE THAN THEIRS OR SOMETHING. But I’ll give…at least a QUARTER of them the “benefit of the doubt” and “assume” they actually own guns and actually own 6.5 Creedmoors and aren’t ALL just paid shills here doing the never-ending work of propping up one of the what, couple DOZEN “new” cartridges the big “gun grab scare”….”blessed” us with?
Jo Mama, the non-belted 6.5 Creedmoor was created by modifying a 30 TC case (which was itself made by modifying a 308 Win., which is a shortened version of the 30-06, which is a lengthened version of the 7x57mm Mauser which is a necked down 8mm Mauser.) And if I’m not mistaken, there was only one company involved in its creation: Hornady. This new 6.5 cartridge does, indeed, join a long list of 6.5mm cartridges built in various countries over the years. Many of these produce nearly identical MV and trajectories, but only the Creedmoor was engineered to maximize the long range performance that extreme range target/competition shooters want, need and apparently have found in the 6.5 Creedmoor.
Nice article Ron,
I have many rifles in my tool chest. Lots of doggin rifles along with a Browning SS A-Bolt 25-06,Sako 270 WSM, and Browning SS A-Bolt 300WSM. I used to help thin the does in Southern Iowa a few years ago in their special late season doe only. That little 25-06 spoiled many doe life with one shot with the Nosler 100 gr BT. My longest shot was only 405 yds but was as effective as all the closer shots. I bought the 270 WSM early in the years that season was available to us and took even more with it (140 gr Accubonds). I won’t be getting rid of either rifle. Ballistics are nearly the same with the rifles and both topped with Zeiss scopes with rapid Z6 or Z8 reticle. The point is there is more power in the 270 than the 25-06, but they were obviously to me both extremely effective rounds. The 25-06 a little milder was used by some friends down there too. They fell in love with it. Both guns hand loaded shoot less than .25” groups. Turns out Wonderful! A large sporting goods store came out this summer to use my range and I shot the 6.5 Creedmoor. It was awesome! Gongs rang at 600yds just fine. Nothing that my 25-06 or 270WSM couldn’t do. I fell in love with it but not giving up my 25 or adding another yet. Bottom line the fun is buying these tools and learning how to perfect their accuracy as best I can with a bullet to the task and then enjoy them. None of the deer told me the 25-06 was inadequate.
I have taken two 6×6 bull elk with my rem model 700 25-06. Both under 90 yards. One with sieara game king 117s grain and one with Berger 115 grains. Neither went down on the first shot and both took 2 more rounds before it was over. All were kill zone shots. In hind site recovery for each bull could have much more difficult had the animal managed a couple hundred more yards. It will do the job on an elk. But don’t expect them to just tip over.
Mark, I don’t expect them to just tip over no matter what I hit them with. I’ve put three 180-grain AccuBonds into the kill zone from 40 yards before the bull gave up the ghost. Ditto three 160s from a 7mm Rem. Mag. A solid hit in the chest from a 150-grain TSX carrying nearly 3,000 f-p energy upon impact (280 Ackley Improved) and the bull just turned and walked away — until blood pressure dropped and so did he. Four solid chest hits from a 300 magnum before another 6×6 bull finally showed any sign of having been hit from no more than 150 yards out. Then again, a single 140-grain Partition from a 284 Win. and kerplunk. Down right there. But that was a high shoulder/spine hit. Heart/lung hit game doesn’t always or even most often drop right there because the brain is still functioning. It continues until blood pressure drops. Often takes a few seconds to several, during which the animal can run, walk, stand, continue browsing or even courting a receptive cow. They don’t know they’ve been shot. With elk, keep shooting until down.
Who-wee! SO entertained with some of the responses. Don’t know who’s more passionate, football fans (not me) or firearm freaks (ME).
Great article regardless of which side of the fence you’re on. In this instance it seemed to me that about 50% of the contributors were wrapped up in a barb-wired fence! Personally I prefer leaning on a split rail fence, in the shade, with a “cool one”, watching “that” guy all snarled up in barb-wire. (Who needs the comedy channel on Netflix?)
But I digress, on to my ¢.02…, Last night a Bohunk pal of mine (at our local watering hole) showed me his NIB Savage bull barreled; Bushnell equipped (shoosh, I’ve got a dozen swapped out scopes in a drawer) Creedmoor, fresh from Wally World, after rebate only $300. One left in stock at store, sale ends 31 Dec. I WAS HOOKED, having been following the Creed for a few yrs, with the interest never quite dying out.
A little later another “hunting” pal of mine (pick up on the difference there vs. “shooting”?) put a bug in my ear about how so many were rushing out to get one. Apparently I had enough cognitive ability left in me when I departed to take a breath this morning before running 20 miles (yes I live in the boonies) to get my hands on the LAST one. And I found this discussion, read the article and EVERY comment. The old addage “sleep on it” carries SO much wisdom.
Having in my collection…, M96 6.5×55 Swede (original), Browning Medallion A-Bolt 25-06, and a custom .25-.284 wildcat ( Monte Carlo fiddle-back stock, birds-eye Maple fore end / grip cap, heavy taper bbl, anchored to a Remington 722 action. Unh-huh, she’s a thing of beauty…, that pokes sub 1/2″ clovers. So proud.)
So long story short, I realized I’ve ALREADY got what I thought I needed for what I do, and I’ll put dollars to doughnuts that many of you do too ( thank you to the guys that gave info on high BC .257 bullets). But as addicted “bang-stick-ophiles” do we REALLY need an excuse to obtain ONE more toy? Thanks for indulging me guys……, being a cheap-scate do I get any change back from that ¢.02? Peace Out!
I envy your accuracy returns and appreciate your humor, David. But I hope my articles aren’t dissuading you or any other readers from buying more guns and ammo. That’s not the idea. You’re supposed to buy and test everything to prove me wrong and keep the industry humming.
I’ve been packing a 25/06 for over 35 years. Being a south paw , I could not buy one off the shelf. I bought a 700 Remington lh, & had gunsmith put a Hart match grade stainless 26” barrel on it.
Over the years I have shot nearly big game animal in Canada with it. Over 25 bull elk, 2 bull moose, big horn rams, grizzly bears, black bears,caribou & too many deer to count. After the big game season is over, I switch from the 115 grain partition bullets to the light weight 75 grain hollow points & shoot coyotes & wolves all winter.
I chose the 25/06 build because I don’t enjoy recoil from larger calibers. Bullet choice for hunting is extremely important & is bullet placement.
Bang for the buck- best caliber out there. Does it have limitations— of course ,they all do! PS. He that waits for a perfect horse must walk.
Love it, Les. Thanks for contributing.
Great “perfect horse” quote, Les. Ain’t it the truth!
Enjoyed your article Ron. I have been shooting a 2506 for over 30 years and love the caliber. I presently shoot a Browning x Bolt 2506 with a Leupold 4.5 -14 scope with cds and love it. Have taken several deer, both mule deer and whitetail, at around 400 yds and too many to count in closer. Just dial in the distance and shoot. Also have used it with great success on 2 Bull elk and several cow elk. I use 115 gr Nosler partitions and they have never failed me. I have a 7 Mag for heavy game and it is a great shooting rifle, but it doesn’t come off the wall very often. Just as a side note, my first hunting rifle was one of the mildest recoiling rifles I have ever used. It was a Savage 99 in 303 Savage. It has been retired for a lot of years.
Montey, thanks for sharing your successes with the 25-06!
25-06 owner for 30yrs. here is my take on the caliber for what it is worth, first off i would like to say i have used it on everything from crows to mule deer, i would not even want to try to figure out the number of white tailed deer i have shot with the gun, mule deer 2, antelope 2,coyotes a bunch, fox some, and some other things i will not mention. (the 25-06 is a wantabe) it wants to be a varmint rifle, too big, too much recoil and don’t even bother to try to sell the pelts. it wants to be a deer gun, too small, it does kill!! but don’t give up on the blood trail on boiler room shots. i have shot everything from factory loads to reloads 75 grain up to 120 grain, you may ask why i keep the gun, well, it shoots very good, i trust it, have faith in my shots, i have learned putting the cross hair 2ft. over the back of a white tale and you better go look for the blood trail..don’t know the sure yardage, put cross hair just daylight over the back, 18in. to play with, if he don’t move add a foot to it after each shot just don’t forget to look for blood
Great article! Exactly the information I was looking for. Thanks.
After reading everything written here, I think I’ll go buy a .308. It has to be the best of all worlds! I can get to over .7 on BC with current production bullets, it has a barrel life better than any of the discussed cartridges, it has mild recoil…especially if I add a muzzle brake, and it is proven on elk and in 1000yd competitions. And it’s a classic. Brass and ammo are ubiquitous. It comes in a Browning X-Bolt with 26″ barrel weighing under 7 lbs. Thanks for solving the “best cartridge” issue for me, gents! Happy shooting!
Ray, good luck and enjoy your new rifle!
Great article Ron! I’ve shot over 40,000 rounds of 25-06, starting with the Neidner Improved version in the ’60s. This is one of my favorite cartridges of all time. The improved version produces speed to match the .257 Wby with better accuracy and is dirt cheap to shoot.
You hit the nail ON THE HEAD. The 25-06 needs a 7 or 8 twist to allow it to share in the use of very low drag bullets. I have no doubt Hornady will jump on it when such a rifle is produced. Sign me up to experiment with lots of 130g and 140g class bullets on 600-1000 yard targets and varmints. Most bullet makers want them but all are waiting for rifle manufacturers to correct a decades-old twist rate problem in 25 caliber. I shoot the 115g Bergers at 3225 fps and they are amazing for 1000 yard p-dogs. You have never seen an antelope drop faster than when hit with a 100g Sierra Game King at 500 yards. Over 95% of my shots have used 75g varmint bullets shooting in the .0 to .1 MOA accuracy range with custom barrels.
I also shoot the Creedmoors and make long range precision rifles using them with high satisfaction. You will find a more direct comparison for the 25-06 REM in the 6mm Creedmoor. With its higher velocity using a 105g to 115g VLD bullet in an 8 twist barrel, it tracks right with the 25-06. I SO want a 25-06 Improved with 130g-140g VLD bullet. I’d gladly buy a custom 7 twist barrel because I expect it to be the most accurate of all these at 1000 yards. Those who think they need a short/fat cartridge haven’t shot the 25-06 Improved from the bench in the .0 and .1 MOA range. It’s an amazing cartridge, with low recoil, high impact and amazing accuracy, especially in the AI form.
Thanks Mike. Let’s hope the manufacturers are listening. I see no reason for any to stick with the old 25-06 twists.
This put me on a search of current production twist rates for .25-06 rifles… almost all of them that I saw were 10″, with just a couple of 9″ twists sprinkled in (i.e. Barrett Fieldcraft, Remington 700 Sendero). Oh, and a Howa Hogue with a whopping 12″ twist. Interesting.
Ron,
Great article. Contrary to some of the responses I’ve seen here I think the world is full of good “deer” cartridges. I have killed both mule and whitetails with the following cartridges: .243 Win, 6.5x55mm Swede, .270 Win, .308 Win, and 8x57mm. Only one moved more than 10yds after the shot (out of about 50 total). Distances ranged from 30′ to about 350yds. Based on my past history, it did not matter what cartridge I shot them with as long as I took care to place a good bullet in the right place.
Most of these comments seem more suited to good natured ribbing around a campfire or reloading bench, except that some of the folks aren’t so good natured. How about this – I’ll shoot what works for me and you shoot what works for you.
Tom, what are you trying to do, be reasonable? We need debate here. Strong opinions. Wrestling. Fisticuffs. Rolling in the dust and fire. Seriously, you are absolutely correct. But some folks do get carried away. I take such excessive enthusiasm with a grain of salt. It’s easy to get overwrought and let off steam via the internet. Doesn’t mean discourtesy would happen in person. Regardless, we invite all opinions, strong or weak, and we’ll print them so long as there is no foul language or degrading content. By the way, you are a complete bozo, fool, and unrepentant idiot for shooting an 8x57mm at anything. What’s the matter with you! ;-)
I wonder if anyone has ever explored a 25-08? I would assume when they were playing with the 25WSM and WSSMs they’d have explored that but ? I think folks should pick a caliber/cartridge, acquire a quality medium to long range scope, then learn their system/platform. Shot placement always trumps caliber etc. jmho
Yes, many 25-08 wildcats have been made. The 250 Humdinger is an example that started with a 243 Win. case. Necked up to .257, minimum body taper, sharper shoulder. Drives 120-gr. bullets 3,000 fps. More commonly the 284 Win. case has been necked down to make the 25-284. So many of these wildcats are so close to one another in performance that there is no appreciable ballistic advantage. Just fun making/shooting something different. Richard Mann’s “Two-Fity Hillbilly” (6.5 Creedmoor necked down to .257) is the most recent .25 wildcat.
I don’t compete but have used 25-06 since Remington released it in the Model 700 and have shot thousands of Sierra #1610 bullets without ‘burning out” the barrel.
From groundhogs to deer it is a sweetshooting rifle and doesn’t wear on you to carry or during long shooting sessions.
For economy I have a ‘3-gun’ stable of 25-06, 280 rem, and .35 Wheelen all in Model 700s and all using the 30-06 parent case. The .280 is longer so I buy them but any of them can be formed from the ’06. This group has taken everything from groundhogs to Kudu
Ron, as I am sure you are aware, here in Europe there are a number of rifles with easy barrel/caliber change systems. In looking at quarter-bore options, I have found one – the Blaser R8 – offering the .257 Weatherby Magnum, and another – the Sauer 202 – offering the .25-06 Remington.
In your estimable opinion, which of these calibers would make the best option for hunting deer and chamois, maybe goat, in mainly alpine regions? I just saw my first chamois this week up in the Swiss Berner Oberland, by the way. It was a snowshoeing trip, so no hunting, but it was still exciting to see a new species that I had only ever seen pictures of before.
Cugeno: Both the 257 Wby. and 25-06 Rem. would be deadly for deer, chamois, and any goat species I’ve ever seen. You’ll get slightly longer Maximum Point Blank Range from the 257 Wby due to roughly 200 fps more MV. Concomitant recoil increase. The 25-06 Rem. should make for a slightly trimmer, lighter rifle due to is smaller head diameter, but that depends on the rifle design. I used the excellent Merkel K3 single shot in 257 Wby. and it was extremely trim, light and fast. Dakota Model 10 in falling block single shot 25–06 is another delightfully light, trim, deadly accurate rifle. I wouldn’t hesitate to use either on elk, kudu, or even moose with the right bullets.
Much obliged, sir.
Wouldn’t using a 120 grain bullet in the 6.5 creedmoor even the trajectory difference? Nosler reloading manual #8 shows a 120 grain ballistic tip in 6.5 creedmoor at about 3000fps with a BC of .458. In the 25-06 a 115 grain ballistic tip is at about 3150fps with a BC of .453
The 120 grain 6.5 has a (very) slightly better BC and is only flying 150fps slower with a fair bit less powder.
Yes, Mike, a lighter bullet at higher MV would flatten the trajectory of the 6.5 CM, bringing it closer to that of the 25-06 load you mentioned. Regardless the cartridges we shoot, so long as B.C. and M.V. match, ballistic drops are the same and so is the wind deflection. The heavier bullet will always carry more energy. However, while you’re decreasing your 6.5 bullet mass to increase speed, I could be decreasing the .257 bullet mass to increase it’s speed, too, resulting in even flatter trajectory. Kind of a reverse arms race. But you are wise to consider these options and study ballistic tables to learn what your advantages and trade offs are.
Very true, thanks Ron. You sure got a response out of this one, 171 comments! While I’m at it out of 25-06, 6.5 creedmoor, 6.5×55 and 7mm-08 which would you pick for general purpose deer hunting and target practice? I have a 30-06 for the bigger stuff but want a smaller cartridge for less recoil, more shooting and sufficient for deer hunting. I know there’s a million variables but what would you lean towards and why?
I’d go 6.5 CM for targets, 7mm-08 for do-everything big game hunting, and 25-06 for open country, deer-sized hunting, esp. pronghorn, mule deer, sheep, goat. And wouldn’t hesitate to use on caribou.
And if one could only afford a rifle in one of those?
Your pick, Mike. Depends on what you want to do with it. For hunting I’d go 25-06. For lots of target shooting, 6.5 Creedmoor.
Thanks for your reply Ron. Glad I can pick the brain of someone who’s shot all these different cartridges! I’ve read some of your other articles and I think I’m getting the picture here.
Targets shooters don’t care much about drop because a known trajectory is easily compensated for on the range. They would prefer a higher BC bullet because wind drift is less easily read and compensated for at long range. Thus the 6.5 Creedmoor is about perfect for target shooting, fast twist barrels, very high BC bullets, modest velocity = modest recoil, drop is easily compensated for. Throw in the 6mm Creedmoor here too I guess for the same factors.
Hunters would generally prefer a flatter trajectory because when a game animal pops out and you have seconds for a shot there may be no time for a range finder, dialing a scope, getting the scope to the correct power for your drop reticle etc. If you have a flat shooting cartridge out to say 300 yards, i.e. longest MPBR available, it reduces the chances of missing due to an incorrect estimate of range.
Am I on the right track here?
I guess what I’m looking for are 2 rifles/cartridges. One for targets, one for hunting. Ah, choices choices. What to go for first…
Mike, you are spot on in your analysis. Perfect. Now you get the agony of choosing. The good news is you can’t go wrong with at least a dozen poplar options. If you’re not a handloader, you might want to check out factory ammo options before you jump. Then determine how much rifle weight bothers you. Traditionally rifles are supposed to weight 8 pounds to be “field accurate,” but experience has shown me that 6-pound and even lighter score better in my hands. These days few of us stand on our hind legs and fling led. With a pack, bipod, tripod or other rest aid, super light rifles shoot darn well. I’ve never regretted carrying one for shots out to 450 yards. I’ve rarely shot farther than that on game. Enjoy!
Good point thanks Ron.
I know there are a million variables and that ultimately cartridge choice is not the most important, but for general deer hunting and target practice of 25-06, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5×55 and 7mm-08 which would you choose? I already have a 30-06 for the bigger stuff but I want something with less recoil for target practice and smaller game.
as long as the other rifles in my safes get along with it any rifle is welcome into the gun safe from my 10 or is 12 .22 rim fires I really do like a good shooting .22 to my .17 or from my .243’s or m y 30-06 or .300 win mag 45-70 or any of my other choices If they shoot well they stay if they don’t shoot well we keep trying new ammo loadings till they do shoot really well. Just bought a 6.5 creedmoor and I am not sure will it will fall into the mix yet I haven’t fired it yet. And being in NY I am doubtful that I will ever come across a place to put it through it’s paces. I’d hope to get the opertunity I had as a teen upstate NY shooting hundreds of chucks a summer out to about 800 yards with a 308 win. But a guy can dream. As long as it goes boom and sends lead down range very quickly and accurately I know I’ll have fun with it and it will feel right at home with all it’s new friends. Hey lets face it after more than 50 guns of various calipers I am addicted . I’m a gun slut and will shoot anything that comes along. The guys who only have one gun to compare to are more easily convinced that there’s is the only way to go . And have more time to work up a perfect load and burn out more barrels.So keep shooting long and hitting your target the best you can and leave the guy or gay on the next bench alone!
hi Ron,
Great article and you have encouraged me to research the options for getting a rifle in this calibre.
I note Tikka, Browning, Remington, Howa, Sabatti, Steyr, Barrett, Weatherby, Sako have rifles in this calibre, but there are few online reviews.
Short of getting a custom made gun, i note your points that most of the rifles don’t come with 24″ barrels and a 1-9 twist rate.
Can you or anyone recommend a good new off the shelf gun in this calibre, as few seem to come with the optimal barrel length and twists, but as some have noted how much of a difference will the deer notice if it is shot at 300m with 24″ barrel with 1-9 twist compared to a 22″ barrel with 1-10 twist?
Geoff, I haven’t researched who might be building 25-06 with 1-9 twist. You’ll have to dig. As for barrel length, you’ll give up about 25 fps for each lost inch. No big deal, really and, as you noted, the deer aren’t going to notice.
I saw recently that the Barrett Fieldcraft rifle in .25-06 Rem. is being offered in a 1-9 twist and a 24″ barrel, Geoff. Not sure if that particular firearm floats your boat, but the numbers do match up…
Happy hunting! (Both for the rifle, and thereafter…)
Ron, your comparing a larger case capacity for powder, I personally have bot a .250 Savage boilt on a Winchester. 308 action Douglas Air gage barrel, shooting a Nosler BT at 3000 fps through my chronograph and a .257 Roberts in Ruger Ultralight shooting the same Nosler bullet at 3250, this must be a better comparison, but I also have a 6.5 Creedmore in a Kimber Mountain Accend shooting a Berger 130 OTM at 3000 fps, so what do you think? Been hand loading hot rods for 39 years, I’m very cautious and careful
Best,
POP’S
Hi Pops! You didn’t provide the B.C of the bullets you’re shooting. That is the most critical number. B.C. and MV determine drop and drift. Bullet mass determines retained energy. That said, I do know there are no .257 bullets with B.C. as high as what your Creedmoor can throw. So, if MVs are close, the Creedmoor would win downrange. You need quite a bit more MV to overcome the B.C. advantage, which is what the additional powder in the 25-06 Rem gives you. That said, if you’re keeping shots inside 300 yards, there isn’t enough difference to matter. Keep shooting what you like. Both your .257 rifles are sweet performers, just not at 500 yards and beyond.
Hi Ron-
Follow up to an earlier message. It took a few years…I finally talked my South Africa P.H. into a .25-06. He sent a message yesterday. He used it for the first time two days ago. First shot on a Blesbuck at 200 yards. Flattened it. Second shot on a Springbuck at 524 yards. Flattened it. Third shot at another Springbuck at 565 yards. Flattened it. He said it is now his favorite rifle among the several he always uses. His handload was the Barnes 100 gr. TTSX at 3280fps all flying into the same hole at 100 yards. His business partner has used a .257 WBY for awhile with great results too. Their staff ate well.
Always good to hear 25-06 success reports.
Hello Ron
Great read. I have been a 25-06 fan for many years. I have 2 of them and have shot ground squirrels,
coyotes, white tail , mule deer , and even one late season cow elk while on a mule deer hunt. I would rather have a freezer full of cow elk than a stinky mule buck :) I also own a Ruger RPR in 6.5CM with
a Steiner scope that cost more than my first car. My wife and I shoot steel from 800 to 1600 yards and
have never considered shooting the 25’s at those ranges. On the other hand I wouldn’t hunt with our
RPR’s either.
Jack O’Conner (the high priest of gun writers) said it long ago . . . the average hunter has no business using a scope over 4X . . . because the average hunter shouldn’t be taking 300 yd shots. Of course, optics have changed, but not “average huntes.” I suspect ol’ Jack would still say the same thing today, and notwithstanding 6.5 CM, 25-06, .260 etc., he would still be using and praising the .270. I think the 6.5Cm with its lower recoil takes the place of 25-06, .257, .260 and .308. However, because of my advanced age and arthritis I’m perfectly happy with my flat shooting .243 because my deer hunting is done under 250 yards.
Gary, I think you’re probably correct, but… more shooters these days are dedicating themselves to training, practice, and a deeper understanding of ballistics and trajectories. The rage for shooting extreme range has made 300-yard hunting shots routine for some of these folks. Still, the average hunter who doesn’t indulge in hundreds of rounds of practice each year is flumoxed by 300 yards.
You’re absolutely right, Ron. Seen way too many hunters missing/wounding/losing deer at 300 yards. They use big calibers because they think that will make a difference. Byron Dalyrimple (not sure of his last name) who wrote for Outdoor Life and other publications (years ago) used a .243 exclusively for Whitetail. He got me started on the .243 as I got older. If we put a .243 in the hands of the young and the ladies because they will be able to “connect” than there’s no reason why men, especially older men, shouldn’t consider it. But I will agree, if you had only money enough to buy one caliber for all around hunting, the 6.5 might fit the bill.
At 55 yrs old I can hardly see my feet lol’ but with a scope at 100 yrds I’ll put my buddies to shame 25-06 Ruger.
Ron,
Love the article (and your replies/other articles/videos etc). Fun to see we’re still getting our money’s worth out of this particular write-up. This is probably the third or fourth time I’ve been here to re-read everything again.
I love my 25-06 and use the heaviest bullets I can get my hands on (115 grain partitions are my favorite). I’m with all those howling for slower twist rates and heavier bullets. I’d love to be able to shoot a 140 grain partition in a 1 in8 twist.
Keep the good stuff coming, Mr. Spomer.
Blackjack Bullets has a 131-gr. ACE Match bullet rated .330 G7 B.C. Depending on MV, you’ll need a 1:8 or 1:7.5 twist barrel.
I’m left handed and have a few Ruger #1s up to a 375h&h, I love my Ruger #1 in 25-06 and after a trip to South Africa where 2 of the PHs both carried 25-06s with suppressors and used them extensively when hunting on their own as well as culling for land owners. Both recording many one shot kills on plains game up to and including the Eland. Since then I’ve endeavored to get to the point of feeling comfortable enough to use mine on elk. I think I’m there 2018 will be the year. By the way my Ruger #1 in 300 Win Mag accompanied me to Africa and my 180 gr Barnes TSX reloads accounted for 3 one shot kills.
I’ve been using my Browning A-Bolt in 25-06 since I purchased it new in 1991. It has been my go to for wolves, wolverine, many caribou, and several moose. I used it on a grizz once as well. Choosing a good bullet design as they became available over the years was key on the larger species. Accuracy and proficiency in shot placement also key in my success with this rifle. Next up is Dall Sheep in 10 days. Still my favorite rifle. My kids will be using it soon as well.
I’m seriously considering buying a new ‘all around’ hunting rifle and 6.5 is definitely on my radar so thanks for the thought provoking discussion…
The 25-06 is a great round! as are many other rounds. i for one am starting to get sick of the constant commercial hype. Look another round! this one goes 10 fps faster than the last one! lets all go buy new rifles that we cant find ammo for in 10 years…
i do believe however that the 6.5 is here to stay. not just a passing fad. here’s why.
AR’s are here to stay. the 25-06, the 270, etc are great rounds that have stood the test of time but more and more people want to shoot an AR – myself included. so these rounds are going out and the 308 wildcats are coming in.
Just picked up the local sporting goods store’s latest catalog. over half of the entry level priced hunting rifles are available in 6.5 creed. cant find 25-06 anywhere…
The 6.5 Creedmore has the advantage after 3-400 yards (my rough guess, I’d have to look at a table) and continues to gain more advantage the farther out you go. With the increased interest in long rang shooting and hunting, what is desirable to the average shooter is changing. The higher BC will keep it’s speed and energy longer. I agree that most bullets are a fad, but the 6.5 Cr will stick around. It should have been the 260 Rem, in my opinion, but that’s a whole other discussion. I’m a huge fan of the 25-06 also. Not trying to put that down… fact is different attributes make different cartridges for different situations.
I use both. And both have their place. I have been using a Savage 25-06 for 20 years for dear and hog in east Texas. Its a killer, nothing has wandered off wounded. This year I converted a LR10 in .308 to the 6.5 Creedmoor with a Faxton barrel and bolt. It has taken over for hogs as the hogs are trying to take over the county. Now several from the pack die in rather that on at a time. Deer and an occasional coyote will still fall for the 25-06 as long as I hunt. Using a tack driver for hunting makes every hunt better. Having a tack driver, in a hunting caliber, on an AR type platform, is heaven sent, unless your an east Texas hog.
Any suggestions on a pump action in 25-06? Semis aren’t allowed in Australia and I don’t like bolt actions much.
CC, I don’t believe anyone ever built a 25-06 Rem. pump action rifle. You could rebarrel an old Remington pump 30-06, 280, etc.
Hello Ron,
Thank you for a interesting article. Reading the comments has also been insightful to say the least. Comparing calibers really touched some nerves! Conversations about religion, politics, or Mom’s spaghetti recipe may not have met such opposition.
Many good responses were to the spirit of your article, then some just drove right right through the beans, ( and left the gate open too… ) I build custom rifles, and have way more calibers than I want to admit. I also get out to shoot once a week at a private 600 yard range. When I first started, the goal was to find a caliber I could get anywhere, that would do it all. Well, I learned that’s like trying to rebuild a engine with only a Phillips head. Today, I have multiple’s of your mentioned rifles. And a reloading cabinet that looks like a sporting goods section. There is a tool for the right job. Thank you for opening minds.
My Wisconsin go to hunting rifle for the most part is the 25-06, but regardless of what I am shooting, I learn how to shoot it. Then work up loads for that specific rifle. I see people all the time that want “the look” of a marksman, spend big bucks on cool stuff, and can’t hold a 3″ group at a hundred. I also run into shooters that take in every aspect of accuracy, which is great, until they are in the beans. ( like: ” I stop my heart just before I squeeze the trigger.” ) I look forward to your next article!
Thanks Howard. You sound like someone who knows his beans and his business. Continued successful shooting and happy hunting to you.
Figured I would give my experience with my 25-06 AI. It began its life as a 1994 Remington BDL 25-06 Synthetic blued with a sendero contour barrel. I had the action trued by Jon Beanland and a #5 Shelien match select barrel at 26″ chambered in 25-06 AI by David Christman and bedded in a Manners MCS-T in elite hunter shell..this rifle with nosler brass and 120gr Partition chronographed with a magnito speed at 3,313fps average and shot a three shot group at 0.09″ with IMR 8133 and CCI BR-2 primers. I took a hundred dollar bill from a young man with a 257 Wby. Chronographs and a target tell the truth. P.O. Ackley didn’t have the powder technology and bullets we have in 2018 and this rifle is a screamer when you find that is loves to shoot.
Guys thinking of a 25-06 for hogs in South Carolina. Shots could be as far as 350 Yards. Maybe a Remington 700 or Savage with the thumb hole stock.. Thoughts?
With the right bullet in the right place, that’ll work just fine. I’ve taken feral TX hogs through the chest with 50-grain V-Max bullets from a puny 221 Fireball at 150 yards. The thumbhole will slow you down a bit on safety operation, but will stabilize the rifle better for precision long shots.
All.you idiots on here claiming to make 600 and up to 1000 yd shots on game are full of shit.I doubt any of you know how damn far away 600 yards is in the field let alone 1000.I highly suspect all of you are way over estimating how far you are shooting.As someone who has killed game animals cleanly out to 400 yards you are doing the rest of us REAL ETHICAL SPORTSMAN a disservice with your ridiculous stories of a 2506 or 6.5 NEEDMOOR killing game cleanly at those ranges.Do us all a favor and stop this bullshit.The whole idea of ethical hunting is to get close enough to make a quick clean kill and not relying on your state of the art scope to tell you where to hold. There are a handful of men capable of making 1000yd shots and most hunters this one included are not capable or should even consider such a feat.I dont care what your shooting there is no situation where anyone is justified in trying a 600 or 1000yd shot .elk deer pronghorn or sheep deserve to be killed quickly and cleanly.Please stop putting your trust in a particular caliber to make up for your shortcomings.There has NEVER been a finer cartridge than the 3006 and most likely never will be.It matters less what your shooting than how you shoot.If every hunter used his COMMON SENSE and left their egos at home so much game would be left to live for a ethical hunter to kill cleanly with a good close shot instead of a laughable 600 to 1000yd mirage.
Sir I agree. It is unethical to shoot large game with anything less than 7 mag. 30 06 can pop an elk ethically and quickly. I’ve got a 40 power scope that I use for long range shooting on a 6.5 creedmoor. Have used it on my 7 mag. Wouldn’t shoot anything larger than mule deer with 7 mag nor anything larger than whitetail with the creedmoor. And not further than 400 unless it’s a headshot. I’m good enough to make a headshot to 600 with either one. And it’s risky. I bought both rifles for sniper work, not hunting. Just in case I need a sniper shot someday. We’re supposed to be ready to defend this land. I use a 308 for hunting mainly with a 16 power leupold. 30 caliber punch works much better at hunting distances. 30 06 has about ten percent more powder charge than the 308. It hits harder. But the 308 is enough. It’s best to get within range of 200 yards for the best aim and power. I wouldn’t dare hunt elk with a 25 06. Maybe, maybe, a 25 06 for whitetail. Most likely not. And it would have to be a headshot.
Jason, I respect your choices, but during 50+ years of hunting and taking big game with everything from 223 Rem. through 458 Lott, I’ve discovered the right bullet in the heart/lungs is the ticket regardless of remaining energy. Why? Because energy doesn’t kill. Tissue destruction (hemorrhaging) does. Thus do archers routinely take deer, elk, moose, buffalo. There’s nothing wrong with more bullet mass, speed, or energy on target, but it does not make the difference. The bullet certainly does. Many of my 243 Winchester-shot whitetails have expired much, much faster than some of my 300 Win Mag. shot whitetails with comparable hits. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the shot doesn’t kill you at the butt end, it won’t kill the deer at the muzzle end — unless the projectile tears vital tissue. But hey, that’s just my experience. I certainly don’t expect you to disregard your own and I commend you for using cartridges you know work for you! Cheers and successful hunting to you!
I commented on why I switched over from 25-06 to the creedmoor, but I just saw this. I’ll agree with you on the 243 Ron. I’ve done a lot of depredation work for farmers in the past. Used everything from 223s to 300winmags (even used Henry 357mag lever for close work) and I can tell you that as long as you shoot a 24″ or 26″ barrel, a 243 with plain ole 80 grain soft point federal powershocks is devastating on whitetails out to 300 and hogs to 250. It flat rocks them just as good as a 300 win. Most people that have had bad luck with 243s have shot ones with 22″ or less barrels. It takes 24 inches of barrel to sufficiently burn all the powder packed into a 243. My Remington 700 in 243 will actually outshoot anything in my safes out to 400, accuracy wise. Only problem is the thin barrel has to cool twice the amount of time between strings.
I’ve killed one deer at 100 yards. I thought that was something. I’ve killed a bunch between 15 feet and 25 yards. I can’t even see 400 yards let alone shoot that far. Never had a need to anyway.
Al, congrats on your close range hunting skills and or luck (I’ll happily take either.) But some hunters have taken dozens of deer well beyond 100 yards and never one under 25 yards. Thus the huge interest in flat-shooting, long range rifles and cartridges.
I have owned a 25.06 for a little over 50 years now. My first one was built by a fellow named Harry Adams. Not a famous builder but one of the best in this part of the country then and for about 40 years after that. It has a Mouser action and a Douglas barrel. The stock was made by a fellow named Dale Tingler. He made stocks for black powder rifles out of curly maple and birds eye mable added a brass cap, rod ferrels, and patch box to them and put a Windy McClung barrel on them and made some of the most beautiful and accurate mountain rifles you ever laid eyes on. So I took my barreled action down to him and ask him if he could make me stock for it? ” Of course I can”. ” I can make a stock for anything “. ha ha ha. What I meant Dale was will you make me a stock? Sure I will if I can get some time they’re keepin’ me akeepin’ busy these days. Think you could get it done by the first of September? Awwwh hell yeah it won’t take that long. I’ll call ya. OK. He called about two months later. He said your rifle’s ready, any time you want to come and get it. I was down to his place in about 20 minutes. ha ha ha ha. One of the prettiest pieces of curly maple you ever saw, glass bedded, Dale’s own style comb and cheek rest. How much do I owe you Dale? Nothin’ it’s paid for. Well who in the hell paid for it? Hu hu hu hu you did. What? You gonna shoot for me in the match again this year? Yeah if you want me too. I won the big end of the year black powder match the year before shooting two of his rifles. That shooting show you put on that day I sold both them rifles and another one after you left. Some fell’r come up and ask me if those rifles that boy was shooting for sale? Yeah but I wouldn’t call him a boy to his face if I wuz you it might irritate him and you don’t want to do that. He ask me how much I would take for both of them so I made him a price and he said ok and never changed words with me. The guy standing next to him said that he had wanted to buy one of them but I told him them two are already sold but that other one settin’ there is the same and just as good. He said how do I know it is? I said I’ll damn guarantee you it is and them papers that come with it have everything about the rifle, my name, my address, my phone number, directions to my house and my signature on the bottom of it. If it’s not as good you call me I will give you your money back and half more but I want my buddy to shoot it before you get any money back. And he ain’t called. But four other people have.
So took my new rifle home put a 6x Layman All American scope on it took some 30.06 brass that Harry had necked and trimmed for me and started working up loads.
87gr Remington bullets, 50-57 grs IMR 4831 powder Rem.9 1/2 primers. That gave it a muzzle velocity of between 3100 to 3400 fps. Best accuracy was at 3200-3250 fpc. Out of the 26 in. barrel . At 100 yds. I could cover 5 rounds with my middle finger. By the way this rifle does have a free bored chamber something Harry incorporated into it that I had no real idea what it was but he did and now I know that some of the better rifles over the years did(Sako, Weatherby) and it worked well.
Now I use Federal and Norma brass, Sierra 90gr. BTHP bullets 51.5 – 56grs.IMR4831 powder 3140 to 3420 fps muzzle velocity and Sierra 117 gr.spitzer BT.bullets 48.4-53.2 grs IMR 4831 powder 2920 -3210 fps muzzle velocity and Federal or CSI primers. I also have a Harington Richardson Ultra single shot 26 inch heavy barrel that will shoot 5/8 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yds. with 90 gr.Sierra BTHP bullets. Not bad for a $219.00 rifle .
I also have a Remington 700 BDL Mountain Rifle with a 22 inch pencil barrel ( 12mm.across the muzzle).that is extreamly accurate for a light sporter rifle 3/4 -7/8 inch 3-4 shot groups at 100 yds. and is a delight to carry all day especially in steep mountain or rough terrain.
I I use the same components in all these rifles Sierra bullets Federal brass and the old IMR4831 powder, yeah I know there are maybe better components out there now so go ahead and try them until you find that sweet combination that that fits you but this has worked for me for 50 years and I am of that mindset that if it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.
My brother carried a ’58 vintage Model 70 Winchester in 257 Roberts for 30 years , my dad ,both grandfathers and old uncles carried 99 Savages in 250-3000 Sav. I still have dad’s,some of my cousins still their dad’s 99 except one,and he carries a 257 Roberts.
Do 25s work? Damn right they do !
One other thing . The gun grabbers the Clintons, Bloombergs, Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein and the rest who 2 years told you they didn’t want to take your guns are finally coming clean and telling us that is exactly what they want to do. So support your local,state, and national representatives who support your 2nd Amendment right, join the NRA keep the fight going to stop the gun grabbers. It’s an all out onslaught to take our rights.
So good hunting, good shooting,good luck. Oh and something else they didn’t like.
MERRY CHRISTMAS
So Charles, we can assume you like the 25-06 Rem., right? Thanks for your support!
I whole heartedly agree with your statement that, “The little known 25-06 Remington can outperform the 270 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor, and with better bullets could do even more.” The ballistics back it up. I would get another .25-06 if there was a better bullet selection. Really enjoyed that sweet accurate flat shooting Savage 110 I had. It was one big rifle regret that I sold it back then.
Comparing a long action cartridge to a short action cartridge? Hmmm seems fair.
Zach, all’s fair in love and war. This idea that one must only compare cartridges that are the same length or same diameter or same caliber or released in the same year, etc. is barking up the wrong tree. Any cartridge can be compared to any other cartridge — heck, even to an arrow. The idea is to understand differences in velocity, muzzle energy, trajectory, etc. so you can make an educated choice.
I’ve killed Elk and Moose with my .25-06. Bullet selection and of course shot placement mean everything with Any caliber.
Ron, thanks for the article. Your comparisons are always informative.
The 25-06 sounds pretty interesting. I haven’t shot one and would like to. I don’t have a “need” for another deer rifle, (have a few now) but I like shooting and loading for different calibers even if there’s some overlap in their “function”.
Blackjack Bullers, a new company, has created high-quality 131 grain .257 billets with a BCS over .6.
They are also working with bae manufacturers to provide faster twist barrels to optimize these bullets. I’ve purchased a sample pack of 20 and quality looks excellent.
Good article Ron, but let’s be a little more fair in your ballistics comparison. Run the creedmoor with 129s or 120s (instead of 140s) and you will see that bullet drop very close to 25-06 out to your 400 mark. Don’t get me wrong, the 25-06 is definitely a great shooting cartridge. I’ve dropped everything from caribou in Alaska to whitetails in the Carolinas with it over the years, but on the bench (and in the field) my creedmoor has shot tighter, flatter and had lot less noticeable recoil than any of my 25-06s. One thing that really surprised me was the blood trail of the creedmoor as compared to the 25-06. Creedmoor is much better. I don’t shoot ballistic tips on big game. Seen too many lost when they hit a shoulder or they didn’t exit when shot in the chest past 50 yards. Here in Carolina, you can lose a whitetail in a 3rd year cut over or briar thicket really easy if you don’t anchor him quick or have heavy bloodtrail. I normally shoot a good softpoint or heavy bonded in my bolts and hardcast in my lever calibers. I noticed you mentioned you’ve taken game with the creedmoor and I was just wondering if you noticed the same blood trail results? Creedmoor is a little bigger, but not enough to make a huge difference as far as diameter. Something else I noticed, after keeping close check on my creedmoors barrel (I’m around 450 rounds now), it has showed less wear than one of my custom 25-06s that only has 220 rounds through it. Loads have mostly been all factory in both guns. I didn’t want to buy into the creedmoor hype either in the beginning. Lot of people in my area went out and bought them and immediately started cussing them when they tried to shoulder shoot hogs and whitetails with SSTs loaded in them at long range. But once they switched over to a softpoint, they fell in love and haven’t looked back. If the creedmoor invention didn’t do anything good but one thing, it taught the uneducated riflemen in my neck of the woods that you don’t have to rupture the disc in your neck shooting a magnum to kill a deer or hog long range over a cut over or bean field. Not saying it can’t be done with 25-06 just as easy, just saying people shouldn’t be so hard on those of us who have switched over to the creedmoor. For some of us, it’s just proving itself better in a lot of different aspects….
Yes! I was looking at that also and if compared with an across the board more comparable bullet weight, drop will be very similar…
Ron,
As usual your knowledge and writing is top notch. But, why no mention of the A.I. .25-06?? I’ve been reloading for mine since age 13, and use only 100-120gr. bullets. My problem is finding High B.C. Bullets and reloading recipes. My father built the rifle on a Remington Mod. 30 action—and it’s incredible!
Thanks for your reply.
KJF
Can’t detail them all short of a book, Karl!
All this bander about long range “hunting”! All of my big game guns are gathering dust in the safe since I took up archery about 15 years ago. In that time my son and I have taken a dozen branch bulls at under 50 yards. The last three I shot were at 10, 8, and 3 yards! I can tell you that it’s alot more exciting to shoot a screaming giant when they are so close you can smell their breath! I have NOTHING against long range “shooting”, but anyone that can’t get closer than 400 yards to a big game animal should go fishing instead!
Ron,
I enjoyed this article a lot! So much so, that I read most of the comments! You are a very talented writer. I have 2 rifles chambered in 25 WSSM. Yes, brass is hard to find… Luckily I bought both rifles in 2007 when they had piles of them at Gander Mountain at clearance prices. I bought a M70 Coyote for $549.00 and a Browning A-Bolt Composte Stalker for $629.00. Nobody wanted these rifles and the prices reflected that. So, I could’ve paid more for said rifles chambered in 25/06, but why? Over the years I would buy every bag of brass I could find on my weekly pilgrimage to Sportsman’s Warehouse and I’ve amassed about 500 cases. So shooting it for the foreseeable future won’t be a problem. I’ve shot just about every bullet load combo you can imagine! My go to elk/mule deer rifle has become my Browning Composite Stalker. It’s super lightweight and accurate! I once printed a 3 shot .75 inch group @200 yards with 115 grain Barnes TSX bullets. It also shoots the 100 grain E- Tips and 100 grain Scirroco II’s exceptionally well. I’ve shot several large bull elk, several large trophy mule deer bucks, tons of coyotes and bobcat, and quite a few antelope as far out as 350 yards. It kills like lightning on a mountain top during a thunderstorm! I’ve extensively shot the 115 grain Berger’s out to 850 yards, but have gotten the same performance with Nosler 115 grain BST’s with better accuracy and almost the same B.C.’s. .453 vs. .466. The best bullet load combo is using a 100 grain Swift Scirroco loaded under 52 grains of Superformance (published in Hodgdon Load Data). It produces roughly 3380 FPS with a B.C. of .429. The added velocity actually aides it in outperforming all 110, 115, and 120 grain bullets with nearly the same B.C. (.429). It’s also one heck of a tough bullet! I shot a bull elk with this load at 80 yards, and it penetrated through both shoulders! This load will actually outperform all the heavier bullets to about 700 yards. And given the fact that I hunt at about 10,000 to 12,000 feet here in CO my B.C. is actually about 1.0 corrected for altitude and barometric pressure. So B.C. is less critical at this altitude. I think the 25 wssm was really under appreciated and it’s basically the ballistic twin of the 25/06. I love the super short actions in these rifles, and have always been drawn to short compact rifles. Hodgdon Superformance powder really transforms the 25 wssm and will push the 115 grain Nosler’s to over 3100 fps in my M70 Coyote with a 24 inch barrel. This is not exceeding maximum factory published hodgdon load data! I once loaded some 75 grain hornady v max’s under Hodgdon BLC2 and was able to achieve an average velocity of 3775 FPS using maximum loads. Again see Hodgdon load data. What a killer prairie dog load! Totally explosive out 500 yards on dogs. One other interesting fact… When everyone was having a hard time finding brass during the O’bummer administration I was not having a hard time buying 25 wssm brass! Apparently nobody wanted the 25 wssm, and no one was looking for brass back then. At the same time you couldn’t find standard cartridge brass, like 308 or 223. Yep, I was pretty much laughing all the way to the bank! Now all I need is about 200 more cases, and it should last me another 10 years! I was shooting my Coyote today at 750 yards with a 20 mph cross wind, and it was dropping em right in there. Did I mention the 25 wssm is quite a bit more efficient than a 25/06! Great article, and keep up the great work!
Will, you are clearly a 25 WSSM expert with a wealth of experience. My friend John Haviland is another 25 WSSM fan. I’ve worked a bit with the 223 and 243 WSSMs, but not the 25. You were smart to buy when and how you did, compiling rifles and brass when they were cheap. Congrats for “seeing the forest despite the trees” blocking the view of so many others.
I bought a 25-06 in 1970. I had to return it because the ammo which was Remington didn’t fit the chamber. I ended up buying a 7mm rem. mag. In 1987 Remington came out with a 26-06 with a 26″ barrel. I’ve taken deer, antelope and coyotes with it. It’s a capable caliber for larger game with a well placed shot. I don’t find the heavier bullets to be nearly as effective as 87 or 90 grain bullets. I’ve used 115 grain noslers and sierra 120’s but the kills were not as instantaneous as the lighter bullets. It shoots great and basically has no recoil.
I bought a Ruger M77 in 25.06 new 40 years ago and since have shot two dozen antelope, fifteen Deer, and a dozen elk with it. I have been told many times by elk hunting buddies that I need a bigger gun but every elk I shot fell down dead with a single shot so my response has always been you need to be a better shot. Numerous times when other hunters equiptment has failed I have handed them the Ruger and saved their hunt. I have never loaded anything but 100g ballistic tips and even out to seven hundred yards, once on a cow elk and once on the biggest deer I ever killed have never had any problem with it. Once I got the 25.06 I have never used any other gun for big game. I have recently bought a 3 to 16 nikon tactical scope and will tune it up to hunt antelope at even longer distance (hopefully up to 1000 yds. (southeastern Colorado is very flat and wide open), as I look to challenge myself. If I don’t think my 25.06 or my skill are up to it I will rethink but I have little doubt that we can make it happen. I have always said that if I won the lottery I would go on a quest to kill every big game animal across the globe with this rifle just to prove it could be done. Say what you will about the 25.06 but it’s hard for me to find fault with it.
I have wanted heavier .25 bullets since 1991 and I am still waiting. For the life of me I have not been able to figure out why no one else has jumped on this. If I had a nickle for every time I have brought this up on a forum or at deer camp I could buy a $4 footlong from Subway every day for a month. People always look at me like I am talking about seeing “Men in Black” or chasing after Big Foot! IF we had the selection of .25 bullets that we have for the 6mm, 6.5mm, or 30Cal no one would be talking about 6CM, 6.5CM, 243Win or prob. event he 284 Win. In fact the lack of heavier bullets is all that kept it from being used for competition I am sure.
Blackjack Bullets has a 131-gr. .257 with a .330 G7 B.C.
Hunted for decades with my 760 in 30 06. Bought new in the mid 70’s. Shot mostly 150 grain Remington Factory and hit what I shot at (the vast majority of the time). I’m in western Penna. and can have shots from 25 yards (woods) to several hundred yards (farm fields and power lines). I’m a lefty and ran in to a guy who was looking for something for his lefty son (my son is a righty) so I gave them a deal and moved on to a used Tikka t-3 Lite in 30 06.
Had to re-learn to run a bolt action, which was fine but the S.O.B. kicked like hell so I got to thinking and found a take off barrel from another Tikka on E-bay from a reputable seller. The barrel was in 25 06. I thought OK I’ve shot a couple deer with a .243 and they died, so why not? The 25 06 barrel arrived and since it came from a righty gun the wording was on opposite sides and the Smith said they might not line up so well. I figured I had a 1 in 360 degree chance but since deer can’t read and I don’t care, we made the change. While the Smith was at it I had him get rid of the plastic bolt shroud and base plate and put on a thicker bolt for gloved hands. I put a nice Nikon Monarch on it as well and took it out to shoot. What a dream come true! Minute of fruit fly accuracy at 100 yards, no kick and come on deer season!
Now, 3 years later and 3 one shot kills on 3 nice bucks with 2 being bang flops and the 3rd a 30 yard death charge. I’m using Hornady Whitetail 117 grains and those deer are just as dead as any others anyone ever shot with any other caliber they like! But now I need to lose the plastic stock. I can live with stainless but miss the wood, so I have fresh in the box a nice grey and pepper laminate from Boyd’s and it sure is pretty! Not Walnut pretty but much better then plastic! Trouble is I’m afraid I’ll mess with the accuracy I do have…Did I mention I put better pillar and bolt bedding in that plastic stock?
Anyways to each their own. My father in law, a Kentucky boy from a hundred years ago, shot most all his deer in the rib cage with a 22-250 and they laid where he laid them! My son prefers a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. with Hornady Lever Evolution ammo, and he is 6’5″ and 270 pounds.
We can argue the merits of 50 different calibers and a thousand ammo combinations, but use what you are confident in and feel good about. The deer don’t know the difference nor care either. Enjoy the woods and the freedoms while you still have them.
Excellent testimonial and outlook, Mickey! Continued success to you.
Thanks Ron, but you know there is that .280 Remington cartridge out there that just may be the best…
Well anyways there always has to be one more gun that trips my trigger!
Seems I may just have the only Tikka T3 Lite Stainless Left Handed bolt in this country seeing as how Tikka makes them but doesn’t import them here to the states.
Now that my son has the 35 Rem Lever, maybe I’ll just pick up another Rem. 760 in 35 Rem to replace the one he now has, in my gun rack. Plus NY now allows rifles so it makes some sense. Then there is the new straight walled cartridge rifles allowed in Ohio too, so maybe a .357, or .44 or 444 or 45-70 will be just the ticket!
Sounds as if you’ve got plenty of cartridges options to keep you busy, Mickey. Have fun.
You’re comparing a long action cartridge to a short action cartridge the 25 06 will not fit in an LR 10
You have to look at mission of purpose the people that are shooting 65 Creedmoor or shooting targets mainly you’re comparing a target round to a hunting around not a good comparison you have to look at mission of purpose the people that are shooting 65 Creedmoor or shooting targets mainly you’re comparing a target round to a hunting around not a good comparison a .243 Win Blistex would be far better to compare with the 25 06 whatever we’re still talking short action versus long action
Keith, I understand your concerns, but you may be underestimating the 6.5 CM. Many, many, many hunters are using this. My wife and I just finished a New Zealand hunt with the 6.5 CM using Nosler 142-gr. Accubond Long Range bullets. Those were not designed for punching targets. And, the 6.5 CM matches the ballistics of the 6.5×55 Swede of 1894 which has been widely used for deer, moose, elk, and even much African game. As for comparing a short and long action, why not? Hunters consider and compare cartridges for a number of reasons, action length being just one of them. Most of us find it informative to understand how a long action performs in comparison to a short action, super short action, and magnum length action. Beside, if the cartridge is chambered in something like a Ruger No. 1 or T/C single-shot, length hardly matters. Essentially, we’re comparing ballistic performance here. And, yes, you are correct. The 243 Win. (I’m not familiar with Blistex as anything but a lip balm) is another good cartridge to compare to the 6.5 Creedmoor. But some readers will probably say they stopping down from .26 to .24 bore diameter is unfair. I don’t agree because ballistic comparisons aren’t about fairness. They are about information and performance characteristics that help us choose what we think we need. Thanks for weighing in, Keith, and best of luck with whichever cartridges you choose.
Give me a break-long action to short action. Get a life bud-LMAO. If I were Ron I would have just ignored you. Get real
Ron , I take my hat off to you sir; I may be wrong, but I think this post has the most comments of any piece you’ve written so far. Seems to have stirred up some of the boys juices !
Question Ron, if companies were to start producing high BC /ELD type projectiles, and faster twist barrels, would the 25-06 be worth Ackley Improving as well , more so for achieving decent velocities without the excessive pressures ?
Just a side note – it never ceases to amaze me , when an article has been written as merely a comparison or talking topic , how many overly passionate chaps , jump on their hobby horses and yah hoo and carry on.
Feels like to me some times people miss the point of it all. I’ve owned many different calibers and rifle combinations over the years. Have practiced with each one, learned their characteristics, abilities and limitations, mine included , and then gone on my hunt, shot and cleanly killed my game, and had a ball. Know the limertations .
Muzzle loader, Creedmore, 300’s, whatever, a true rifle man will be able to make anything work, and cleanly take game.
25-06 ( ai?) High BC bullets, faster twist barrels, good call Ron, can see the 25 odd 6 actually receiving the accolades it deserves.
Ps I love long actions , I have long arms , I’m 6ft 4”. Every feed, ejection , jam up problems Ive had over the last 48 years of shooting have predominantly been with a short action.
Ron would love to see an update to this article, should things in the industry change favourably for the 25-06.
Good stuff Ron , keep up the good work . Was considering building a 6.5-06ai, think I may back off and take a wait and see with 25-06 !
Regards Pete Moran
Pete, good timing and good ideas. I, in fact, have a 25-06 AI being built by Shaw Custom Barrels with 1-7.5 twist. Should se how it shoots those high B.C., 131-grain, Ace Blackjack bullets. Stay tuned!
Could you include the G7 and G1 BC data on your findings? I’m kind of looking forward to the results as well.
California born Arkansas bound, The 25-06 is a caliber that I have been looking at, I have always hunted with A 270. I love that caliber and has never ever let me down, so many people argue about the 6.5 how great it is over the 25, 270, and 06. Military needed a new toy, the 5.56 was small 06 to big, hence the 6.5. I have played with a lot of different calibers in my time And now it’s time for something new. A fire this year 11-8-18, destroyed everything including our town. The 25-06 will be my new caliber of choice, I was shown by my father the ways of the mountains how to hunt and fish and be a survivor the military honed a few of my skills, And now it’s time to put a new cartridge to use.
I own a Weatherby Vanguard original in 25-06. Shoot a 110 grain ELD-X. With out a doubt a gun that will be handed down to my kids and then their kids. The best cartridge and rifle I have had the privileged to own.
lots of butt hurt 6.5 creedmoor shooters here,,,,,,,,,truth hurts huh ?
I’ve always liked the idea of owning a 25-06. I’m thinking of having Randy Selby or Borden make me one. Great cartridge.
I’ll just leave this right here.
https://blackjackbullets.com/?v=7516fd43adaa
Would like to see the old Win 284 with modern ammo against these two. Anyone have recent ballistics results with newer ttx or ttsx tip or similar bullets for the .284? My first antelope was 300 yards, with a lever action, pre-64 .284.
Old stats.
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
100 gr (6 g) HDY 100 HP 3,175 ft/s (968 m/s) 2,238 ft⋅lbf (3,034 J)
120 gr (8 g) SPR 120 SP 2,968 ft/s (905 m/s) 2,347 ft⋅lbf (3,182 J)
139 gr (9 g) HDY 139 SP 2,845 ft/s (867 m/s) 2,498 ft⋅lbf (3,387 J)
150 gr (10 g) Super-X Power-Point 2,860 ft/s (870 m/s) 2,724 ft⋅lbf (3,693 J)
I bought my Win 70 in .25-06 from my barber about 20 years ago. He lent it to me for an antelope hunt I had drawn. He emphasized the exact ammo it liked and boy was he right, it shot .375 MOA @100 yds. the first time I shot it!
I was able to duplicate the 117 gr. Sierra load and now I load them myself and they still shoot that tight…out of a light-weight sporter.
Turns out the barber glass bedded it himself and that was all that was altered. This gun has taken numerous pronghorns and even a cow elk last year. It dropped the elk on a run with authority and 100 yds.
My son has a 6.5 if I want to shoot one but the .25 is my choice.
Great article and best ever comment thread. I might have missed an opportunity with the 25-06, but not too big a one for a mainly east of the Mississippi hunter.
I’ve been studying reloading manuals and ballistics for many years and even hunting every once and a while :-).
Bought my first centerfire, a .243, in ‘73 when I left the Navy. Next, in hope of an Elk hunt, was a .300wsm many years later. Most recently a .270 a couple years ago, partly as a tribute to the man from Page, but mostly to nurse a bad shoulder and finally complete my special small, medium, and large three rifle battery.
It’s no accident that these three with 105, 130, and 180 grain bullets share nearly identical ballistics. The MPBR of all three are all within a couple of yards. Pick your desired energy level and appetite for recoil then go get ‘em. You only need to memorize one drop, wind drift, and yardage table if you get a long (too long?) opportunity.
AND, very importantly, ammo will be available for years for the small and medium if it’s available at all. Maybe a .300wm would be a better ‘large’ choice in that regard, but I wanted max efficiency in the hard kicker.
Get out there and support your favorite pro 2nd amendment politician next year, before it’s too late! All the cards are on the table and both sides are all in. VOTE!
Steve, congrats on being wise enough to match up those trajectory curves and MPBRs.
This article reminds me of a project rifle in 25 Creedmoor…arguably the optimal bore size for the case. Project focused around the Blackjack 131 grain .257 @ 2900+ fps.
https://coldboremiracle.com/2018/10/04/operation-quarter-lord-the-25-creedmoor/
https://blackjackbullets.com/product-category/bullets/?v=7516fd43adaa
Disclaimer – I’m not associated with either of the above.
As to the article, you expect the .30-06 case to win against the little .30 TC derivatives, honestly. A 6.5-06 will crush a 6.5 CM and a .30-06 topped with 200 grain VLD will shoot right along with it – a long action, bigger case and more powder are supposed to win. Now, if you jump to the 6.5 PRC…
i have shot a 700bdl varmiter in 25-06 for over 40 years . it will shoot 75 gr ww match bullets into .250 in, and 120 speer btsp into .750 . it has taken many white tail and mules , a few out to 300yds with 120s all clean one shot kills .
i am in my 70’s now and needed something a little lighter to haul around the mountains so i got a tikka t3 lightweight in 25-06 . first hunt with it last year took a nice 265 lb mule at 295 yds with the reliable 120 speers .” all hail the 25-06 “. in all cases the 120 s enter a quarter size and exit silver dollar and with no fragmenting .
Bought a Savage Axis II in 25/06 in Oct. 2019.Took an eight point Whitetail with it here in Kentucky. 311 eleven paces,120 gr Hornady ammo,he ran 15 yards fell over dead
I have a 25.06 m 77 r and have taken many deer , and I love the gun , but to me any one should be a hunter and get as close to there game as possible , that way it called hunting, and not shooting , to many animals get wounded , and die a bad death , this is being a good hunter, and not just a bragger , we are to set good ethics in hunting , long range shooting at paper, paper doesn’t die a horrible death.
Don, I’m with you on getting close and making every shot precise, but there are many “hunters” who shoot worse at 100 yards than others do at 400. Instead of simply condemning longer shots, we should emphasize shooting within one’s sure-fire rang, as I’m sure you do. Thanks Don!
Ron. I purchased a Rem. 700 BDL 7mm mag. In 1972 on the hope that one day I could travel to Exotic places and shoot exotic big game. Never happened, but i did shoot loads of local white tail deer with it. I even tried ground hogs with it successfully although to say it was overkill was a understatement. For ground hogs I had a Mauser built in 22.250. Shot the barrel out of it and to replace it I went investigating for a light recoiling NON-Magnum rifle capable of shooting both ground hogs and deer, with coyotes, fox, or whatever with the same rifle. In the mid 1990s I ordered and purchased a brand new Rem. Sendero in 25.06 and have never looked back. I have usually killed at least two to four deer with it every year up until 2010. I can say I only lost two deer with it the entire time, probably a combination of using the wrong bullet and bad placement for that particular bullet. (Nosler ballistic tip into shoulder joint). I had got used to hitting the shoulder with the 7 mag. And dropping them right there, with that bullet in .257 the results were not as good even though I had killed several deer DRT with the exact same load by shooting heart/lung slightly behind shoulder. I actually killed my farthest shot on deer with that same load at 465 yards (bean field) through lungs with damage to the top of the heart , deer went 5 yards and collapsed , and i don’t think he knew he was even shot. I switched to handloading the Sierra 117 gr, #1630 and have not lost a deer since. It does not explode as bad and always penetrates with a good wound channel but does not seem to be as accurate as the Nosler in that rifle but still sub moa. I might add that that rifle is hell on groundhogs and coyotes, especially with the 85 gr. Nosler ballistic tip and 75 gr V-max Hornady. Recoil is mild but I would not want to shoot it a hundred Plus times at prairie dogs. My daughter now own/hunts with my old 7 mag. And does very well with it. I take turns now deer hunting between my 25.06 and a custom 7×57 built on a mauser action. I have used the 7 mauser most in the last 10 years or so because it is lighter to carry and I am not getting any younger. Ron, don’t let naysayers stop you from saying what science, math, and experience tells you is right, or just giving your thoughts.
Thanks Eddie! Glad the 25-06 and old 7×57 are working well for you! I love them both.
With the debut of the Speer Impact projectile in 2019 albeit in limited diameters and weights, I’m hopeful a .257 120 grain Speer Impact bullet is available for purchase in the near future. Considering the .257 120 grain Federal Fusion bullet G1 BC = 0.468, a .257 120 grain Speer Impact bullet ought to really push if not break G1 BC = 0.5. So far, the 110 grain Nosler Accubond, 117 grain Federal Power Shock, and 120 grain Federal Fusion have all provided one shot bang-flop zero tracking results hits with the deer and feral hogs I’ve shot with my scoped 24″ barrel Interarms Mark X rifle in .25-06 Remington! It’s been my go-to hunting rifle in Texas.
You got to give Ron a lot of credit. Apparently he reads through all the comments. Personally I couldn’t make it through all of them and jumped to the bottom ones after a while. As usual another good article. There’s always practical information offered by Ron. I’ve been trying to decide which cartridge to get between 30-06 and .223. As I am now getting older I’d imagine lighter recoiling rifles will have their place with me. I don’t really like the idea of having over bore cartridges simply because I shoot the heck out of all my rifles. As I mentioned in a previous post ,I like the idea of a 25-06 but the less overbore 6.5 has some appeal too. Anyway you hanks again Ron. Although I don’t read all the comments by your readers, I apparently read many of your articles more than once.