The 25-06 Remington is a great cartridge with a small problem: obscurity.
You’ve probably heard of the 25-06 Remington, but have probably never seen or shot it. More’s the pity. This 25-caliber offshoot of the 30-06 is, like its cousin the 270 Winchester, a wonderfully effective hunting cartridge. It’s been around longer than the 270 Winchester. It matches up nicely with it as well as the modern 6.5 Creedmoor, yet enjoys nowhere near the popularity of either. Let’s figure out why…
Where Did the 25-06 Remington Come From?
Both the 25-06 Remington and 270 Winchester were created by necking the 30-06 case to hold narrower bullets, .257” and .277”, respectively. That’s not a massive difference in diameter, but .257 bullets top out at about 120-grains and .277 bullets at 150-grains with a few now made as heavy as 180-grains. On the light end, .257s will go as low as 60-grains, the .277 down to 90-grains. All this suggests the 25-06 is optimized for deer-sized game down to coyotes and rock chucks. The 270 may be a bit much for varmints but perfect for deer and adequate for elk and even moose. Of course, plenty of those animals and larger have been taken with the 25-06, too, but then the same can be said of the 223 Remington. What we really need to know is how the 25-06 Remington stacks up against the 270 Win. and similar “mid-size” deer hunting rounds like the 6.5 Creedmoor.
You may be surprised to learn that the original 25-06 popped onto the radar years before radar was even invented. It was 1920 when gunsmith A.O. Niedner gifted it to the public as the 25 Niedner. Cartridge designer Charles Newton had actually beaten Niedner to the punch with a .25-caliber version of the 30-06 case about 1915, but he perfected it as the shorter 250-3000 Savage. (More on that later.) All Niedner did was neck down the 30-06 to hold a .257” bullet. He chambered it in a variety of single-shot rifles, so it was seen as a long-range varmint cartridge first, a deer round second. Shooters loved it, but since no mass-produced rifles were chambered for it nor factory ammo loaded for it, popularity never approached that of the 270 Winchester released in 1925. Also working against the 25 Niedner was another .257 wildcat that hit the shooting scene in the 1920s. This was the 257 Roberts based on the 7x57mm Mauser case hitting about 3,300 fps with an 87-grain bullet.
The Roberts leaped to the top of the 25-caliber pop charts because in 1934 Remington released their version of it, wisely keeping the already established 257 Roberts moniker. With factory ammo and rifles readily available, it took off, aided by its flat trajectory and mild recoil.
More 25-Calibers That Compete Against the 25-06 Remington
As if that weren’t enough to steal market share from the 25 Niedner, let’s not forget the 250-3000 Savage (which most of us do these days.) That cartridge had ignited a firestorm of shooter interest in 1915 when it became the first commercial rifle cartridge to break the 3,000 fps speed barrier. It did so by throwing a light, 87-grain bullet. I don’t know what the 25 Niedner was churning out at the muzzle in those days, but the 25-06 Remington today routinely hits 3,500 fps with an 87-grain bullet, suggesting the Niedner wildcat was the speed champ in the 1920s.
In those days the only other .257s that could even remotely steal customers away from the Niedner were the anemic 25-20 Winchester and 25-35 Winchester. Both were geared for lever-actions with flat- or round-nosed bullets poorly designed for ballistic efficiency, and neither round left rifles with excessive speed to begin with.
Still, five different 25-calibers focused a lot of shooter interest in the quarter-bores from 1915 through the 1940s. They were so popular that Roy Weatherby joined the race in 1944 with his 257 Weatherby Magnum, still the fastest 25-caliber in the stable. It probably shot out of the blocks at 3,700 fps with an 87-grain bullet. But you had to buy an expensive Weatherby rifle or build a custom to shoot it.
The 25 Niedner faced a similar challenge. No major manufacturers loaded it or chambered rifles for it. Another reason typically offered to explain the languishing 25 Niedner is that powders of the day didn’t truly let this round breathe. They were too fast-burning to optimize velocity with heavier, more ballistically efficient bullets and those seen as appropriate for bigger deer, bear and elk. Most 25 Niedners were probably shot with 87- to 100-grain bullets.
The 25-06 Remington is Finally Legitimized
It wasn’t until humans first landed on the moon, 1969, that Remington finally released the 25 Niedner as the 25-06 Remington we know today. By that time it had come closer to full potential thanks to the advent of slower burning powders. Today is shines under the power of some of our slowest powders like Retumbo and Magnum. According to Nosler’s Reloading Guide 7, the 25-06 can push an 85-grain Ballistic Tip 3,600 fps and a 100-grain Ballistic Tip 3,360 fps. It’ll drive a serious big-game bullet, the 120-grain Partition, 3,175 fps through a 24-inch barrel — and probably an elk.
Folks, 3,175 fps is fast. Our beloved 270 Win. doesn’t quite hit that velocity with a 130-grain bullet. Zero both 2.5-inches high at 100 yards and they’ll land within a quarter-inch of one another at 400 yards. Wind deflection favors the 270 Win. by a lousy inch. The 270 will carry 200 f-p more energy than the 25-06 bullet, but I’ll predict no deer or even elk is going to notice. In other words, tie game. So why is the 270 Win. still so much more popular? Undoubtedly because it had such a huge head start and has gotten so much press over the years. But that’s no reason for serious riflemen and women to ignore the 25-06. If you’re shopping for a mild-recoiling, flat-shooting cartridge for whitetails, mule deer, blacktails, antelope, sheep, mountain goats, black bears, caribou, coyotes, wolves and long-range varmints — with enough oomph for elk and even moose if you place your shots carefully — don’t overlook the 25-06 Remington. (This You Tube video shows the flat trajectory of a 100-grain 25-06 Remington and its “knockdown” effect on a pronghorn.) And if you’re still not convinced, keep reading…
25-06 Remington vs. 6.5 Creedmoor
This brings us back to the 6.5 Creedmoor. Everyone is gaga (ladies included) over this cartridge because it supposedly shoots far and flat with minimal wind deflection and mild recoil. The Creedmoor will shove a 143-grain ELD-X bullet (BC .625) out the door going 2,750 fps, according to the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 10th Edition. Zeroed 2.5 inches high at 100 yards, it peaks 2.6 inches high at 150, falls 5 inches low at 300 and 17.6 inches low at 400. Wind deflection at 400 would be 7.5 inches and remaining energy 1,621 f-p. In an 8-pound rifle, recoil velocity should be 10.7 fps and recoil energy should bump your shoulder with 14.3 foot-pounds of energy. Sounds great, eh? But let’s see what the old 25-06 Remington can do.
One of the highest BC .257 bullets on the market is the Berger 115-grain Match Grade VLD Hunting at .466 BC. The Berger Reloading Manual 1st Edition indicates the 25-06 in a 26-inch barrel can drive it 3,149 fps. Nosler gives 3,170 fps for its 115-grain Ballistic Tip from a 24-inch barrel, so let’s compromise at 3,150 fps. Zero the Berger 2.5 inches high at 100 and it’s 3.1 inches high at 150, 1.8 inches low at 300 and 11.1 inches low at 400. Wind deflection at 400 is 8.6 inches, remaining energy 1,572 f-p. Recoil velocity in an 8-pound rifle would hit 11.4 fps, recoil energy 16 f-p. For felt recoil perspective, a 270 Win. would hit 12.7 fps and 20 f-p.
To make this data easier to compare, let’s make a trajectory chart and include the 270 Win. All cartridges are zeroed 2.5 inches high at 100 yards and fired in a 10 mph right angle wind at 50% humidity, 590F at 5,000 feet above sea level. Drop is in inches, Drift in inches, Energy in foot-pounds.
How surprising is this? The unheralded 25-06 Remington actually shoots flatter than both the 270 Win. and the 6.5 Creedmoor. The Creedmoor, thanks to its much higher BC bullet, deflects less in the wind, but only by 2.5 inches at 600 yards! The light 25-06 bullet loses in the energy department, but I’ll bet it’s not going to bounce off of a deer’s side at 600 yards. If you buy into this “minimum impact energy” theory (that you need at least 1,500 f-p impact energy to kill an elk,) you’re good out to 400 yards with a 25-06 Remington, and there are plenty of loads on the market.
Wanted: Higher BC Bullets for the 25-06 Remington
You can alter these ballistic numbers by playing around with different bullet weights and BCs, but the three covered here represent some of the highest in their respective calibers, and that bring up one potential “upgrade” we could make to bring the nearly 100-year old 25 Niedner/25-06 Remington into the 21st century: higher BC bullets.
Nobody is making a sleek, long, heavy-for-caliber, high B.C. .257 bullet. Hornady, Nosler, Barnes, Cutting Edge and others are pushing .277 projectiles into the .6s. Berger now has a 180-grain .277 bullet rated .662 BC! Just about anyone else who makes a bullet churns out 6.5mm projectiles with BCs in the .6s. Heck, they’re even making long, heavy, skinny .243 bullets with BCs approaching .50. Yet the .257 languishes. I’ve yet to find a .257 bullet that even breaks .5 BC.
Why? Probably because there are no long-range competition cartridges designed around the .257 bullet. That’s what drives the 6.5mm and 6mm high BC race. The .277, however, isn’t a competition caliber, so that one must be driven by long-range hunting. So why not the .257? Probably because standard barrel twists (1:10″) are insufficient to stabilize projectiles much longer than current offerings. But that applies to many other calibers and cartridges that are getting high BC bullets. Shooters can and do upgrade to fast-twist barrels. That’s the wave of the future.
Will the 25-06 Remington Get an Upgrade?
I have a hunch some innovative company like Hornady is already working on a high BC .257 projectile. Maybe not. Regardless, even with bullets limited to 120 grains and BCs topping out under .500, the old 25-06 Remington runs neck and neck with the 270 Win. and 6.5 Creedmoor. If you have a 25-06, celebrate it. If you don’t, start shopping. The 25-06 Remington is one of the mildest recoiling, flattest shooting, wind-defying, overlooked medium hunting cartridges in our arsenal.
Ron Spomer has taken whitetails, pronghorns and coyotes with a 25-06 Remington and eagerly awaits opportunities to expand that list.
I have a Colt Sauer that shoots like a dream in 25-06. Love how it handles and how it drops what I shoot. It is a light kicking flat shooting beautiful gun. Agree about getting a better be bullet, but won’t change this barrel.
I previously owned a new Model 70 chambered in 25-06. One of my favorites because it low recoil and accuracy. Took it on a caribou hunt in arctic Quebec and was certainly adequate up to the task. Carried it on a few elk hunts and never had the opportunity to try it out. Took my best mule deer buck with the 25-06 using a 100 grain Barnes behind a stout charge of H4831 SC powder. Currently own a Cooper Model 52 chambered in 25-06 AI that is yet to be shot.
Ron, in the comparing the Creed with the 25-06, you’re looking at 22″ barrels compared to 26″ Shorter overall rifle length, and 45 grains of powder compared to 60 grains of powder.
Not really a fair comparison is it.
I’ll take the 6.5 anytime. The ‘Creed’ is the 270 of the 21st Century.
Bullet drop today is meaningless. Modern optics have made compensation for drop bullets a moot issue. Bullet BC is everything for wind drift in long range shooting. As well as the fact the standard factory rifle with the standard 1 in 10 twist for the 25/06 is not optimal for the big bullets. The 25/06 and its throat burning overbore are better suited to the light bullets. It would be interesting to see the recoil numbers and speed a 140 grain bullet in the 25/06 would produce. A long range 25/06 would be a custom rifle undertaking and as pointed out there are no bullets for a .25 to be a true long range round.
Bullet drop is meaningless if you bench shoot but its an important consideration when hunting. If I need to nail a dog at distance and don’t have time to adjust my scope then I need to know my hold over.
Using a correct ballistic reticle like the Zeiss Rapid Z allows for instant no scope adjusting needed hold on hair shooting right out to 800 yards as long as you know the range, So once again hold over is meaningless.
Richard, you are right. Ballistic reticles, once dialed in to match your bullet’s drop, let you select the needed sub-reticle quickly for precise hold-on shots. That said, you are still “holding over.” (Angling the muzzle higher than the target so the bullet can drop into it.) Your scope’s main reticle will be held well over the target while you sub-reticle will be right on. Most shooters find this, at least psychologically, easier than grabbing a real, old-fashioned hold over where your reticle is on foliage or the side of a hill! Except for old school guys like me who grew up with this as the only option. Kentucky windage! This hold-over need, by the way, is a big part of, if not the main reason, why magnums were invented. Riflemen weren’t shopping for more punch so much as additional reach without needing to hold over. Hunt honest and shoot straight, Richard! And best of luck this season.
Exactly!!
ARRRRGGGGGG… all you need is a rifle and the skill to put an adequate bullet into the quick kill zone.All of the cartridges mentioned with the right bullet for the game are just fine at reasonable range.
The longest shot with which I took a buck was a little over 400 yards with a 30-30 with open sights. The second longest distance with which I took a buck at 300 yards was with a 25-06 with a 2×7 Redfield scope. I’ve sort of lost sight of the purpose of all of these caliber parsings. It’s fun, but expensive, but hey, it keeps the gun industry alive!
come on dude is this some kind of joke?
A 30-30 doesn’t belong on any list= any shots further than 200 yards is an accident and or just luck.
I bought my 16 year daughter a Tikka 25-06 lite!! she has already taken a deer=a yearling at 400+ yards. The crazy thing is that her longest practice distance so far is only 300 yards. Her 100 yard groups can be covered with a quarter almost every time= her 4 shot 300-yard groups have been inside a baseball almost always. For her age= Melissa AKA Boo is a very good shot “talking herself through the shot” and squeezing the trigger. Of course Shooting a gun with a 2 to a 6 pound adjustable pull helps BIG time!!
Eibeckt@yahoo: It sounds as if that daughter of yours is a great shot. Congrats. I’ve been mentoring a couple of teen boys that also remain calm and talk themselves through their shots. They’ve been able to make some remarkably long ones. That said, there is a place — and a solid place — for the 30-30 Win. Thousands and thousands of hunters pursue deer, bear, etc. in habitats where shooting to 150 yards is nearly impossible. They keep most of their shots to that range or considerably less. The mild recoiling, quick-handling lever-action 30-30 Win. has been a proven venison getter. Cheers.
How many feet did you have to hold over the deer at 400 yrs with a 3030
He shot strait up in the air and hoped it would land somewhere. It just happened to hit the deer that was 400 yards away.
joe, you are welcome to it,,,,6.5 is a good little cartridge,,,,but the 25s will in time put it in the shade,,,a faster twist 25 , a 130 to 140 grain bullet,,,,,,and its burial time for the creedmore,,,,,know several guys working on this now,,,,,
very well said
I have noticed that a lot of people look down on the creedmore guys as marketing victims and the gun sellers and gun writers are selling them a brand new wheel that already existed,my 6.5 284 will smoke the creed in every category other than barrel life and the 6.5 284 even does it better.I have nothing against this new round other than brass for it is everywhere while I have to go scrounging to keep my 6.5 Swede up and running because brass for it has been temporarily out of stock now for about two yrs.
Can’t wait!
“I’ll take the 6.5 anytime. The ‘Creed’ is the 270 of the 21st Century.”
The ‘Creed’ is the 6.5x55SE from the 20th Century. There’s very little ballistic difference with slightly less powder capacity. I’ll take the “Swede” in a modern rifle any day. (longer action in a bolt gun a moot point for me).
Side by side Nosler Load Data:
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/65×55-swedish-mauser/
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/65-creedmoor/
I am a big fan of the Swede, as well. This is great information about the 25-06, though… thank you for expanding my horizons, Ron!
Me too. I have a Tikka T3 Stainless in 6.5×55 that is amazing and my all around rig for most hunting. I’ve found a load that will launch 130 gr Accubonds at about 2800 fps and is consistently sub MOA. The reason why the 6.5 Creedmor caught on is because it was designed from the ground up as a short action. The problem with the 260 is there isn’t much room for seating depth. I don’t get some folks obsession with short actions though. The 6.5×55 like the 6.5×284 require a long action but don’t take full advantage of the long action, some people say. As a reloader this is actually a wonderful thing because you can play with seating depth and seat way out there if necessary. When that’s the case you actually increase powder capacity. The COL for most of my 6.5×55 loads is about 3.050″ with some around 3.100″.
I’ve owned many different chamberings for hunting but have settled on the 6.5×55 as an all arounder but step up to the 300 WM when going after very large game. I find so many people start off with a 30-06, then get a 270, then get a 308, all with the idea that they can do everything, then finally get a Magnum rifle because they decided they want something bigger for large game like Elk. Too much redundancy. I find the 6.5×55 is about the perfect deer sized game cartridge and has significantly less recoil than the 30-06, 270, and 308. I find that those cartridges tend to have a bit more power and recoil than needed for deer but can be a bit light (except for the 30-06) for very large game like Elk. Especially at longer distances. I public land hunt in Colorado for Mule Deer and Elk. Let me tell you, it can be very hard to even see Elk on public land during hunting season, let alone at close ranges. Most of the Elk I see on public land tend to be 300+ yards away and rarely expose themselves enough for very long before going into the timber which makes stalking them very hard. That is why I stepped up to the 300 WM for Elk. However, the venerable 30-06 is very hard to beat as an all arounder.
@Chris
I agree with every Swede benefit you mentioned 100%. Another added benefit for many Euro hunters is utilizing the long 156 gr Norma bullets. I have the Tikka 6.5x55SE as well, having used a sporterized Mauser 96 for years on Alberta Whitetail & Mule Deer. The Tikka is a perfect no nonsense rifle for my deer hunting applications. I handload 140gr Hornady SST to 2730 fps (chronograph) for an average (3) round 0.75 group size. Have yet to see a deer move a few feet after being hit inside of 250 yards. Haven’t tried any further out to know otherwise.
That said I do use a 25-06 Rem for Antelope, a mid heavy barrel 24″ Ruger M77. Handload Hornady 117gr SST to 3000fps for cloverleaf groups @ 100y. If I needed faster I’d go with a Weatherby. At 3000fps it’s dead accurate, 11 ft/lbs of recoil energy with that load in my rifle, and reduced barrel wear.
Also use 300 Win Mag A-bolt II and .358Win BLR for elk & moose depending where I’m hunting. Both using Nosler Partitions but I do load the .358Win with 225gr Sierra GK as well for deer as the mood strikes.
I’m comfortable shooting inside 400 yards, otherwise I’ll either wait, stalk up, or pass on anything further, there’s always next time :)
The obsession with short actions, like much of current innovation, is being driven by PRS type competitions. Shorter action means less bolt movement, which translates to greater speed and less movement. Probably has very little relevance in hunting.
The higher BCs of the 6.5 bullets ARE relevant for hunting though. A 6.5 Creedmoor can kill an elk at 1000 yards predictably (assuming good bullet placement). A .25″ bullet would have a very hard time pulling that off.
I agree with your comment on the redundancy of people buying a 30-06, then 270, then .308. Lots of people seem to do it but those cartridges are all in the same category i.e. ‘all around big game cartridges.’ I’d rather spread things out and have one representative from each category that is relevant to what I hunt. Say a .223, 6.5×55 and 30-06. Or have specific rifles set up for specific purposes i.e. one for target shooting one for large game, one for medium game etc.
I agree. I can only afford to feed a few rifles so keeping it simple is a must. I’ve got a .223 for pigs and home defense, my trusty .25-06 for varmints to elk, I’ve got a 6.5cm for competition shooting and a .35 whelen for everything else.
Like the .270 was anything but Winchester coming up with a new “70” cartridge to go with its then-new Model 70 rifle and a cartridge that’s “close enough” to the suddenly LEGENDARY 6.5 Creedmoor called .243 Winchester hasn’t been around along with many, many other 6-6.5mm cartridges “forever” as far as the overwhelming majority of “shooters” alive today are concerned.
But the “noob crowd” will flock to anything and everything if it has a “cool name” and is “new” and doesn’t end in “Remington” or “Winchester” even if only exists because what it really does and what it really is only possible because there are several other “unsuccessful” or “unpopular” or “obsolete” or “unknown” or “uncool” cartridges that put and kept the bullets in production.
What?
Form a sentence.
Compose your thoughts before you spew them out. You ran all your thoughts together in one massive “dump”.
Take your lithium, give it 2 hrs to work and then compose your thoughts into a coherent post.
And your point is…what?
“Pointless”
and the 26 Nosler completely blows away the 6.5 in every category.
Well, except for low recoil, barrel life and cost of cartridges. But for sheer ballistic performance, 26 Nosler. Unless you introduce the 6.5-300 Wby. into the mix…
Great reply Ron (and great article to boot).
Rifles/cartridges are like engines/transmissions. We can have incredible ballistics, but we sacrifice low recoil and barrel life for it, or we can have mild recoil and reasonable barrel life. Just like engines; the more power I have the more speed I sacrifice. Gear higher and the speed rises as my torque decreases…..
Find what you like, or at least what you can live with, and make it yours.
The 26 Nosler is a 6.5, same bullet it just carrys almost twice the powder of the 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Rem.
Anytime anywhere anyplace my custom 25.06 Mauser with hand loads of 120 grain bthp will out shoot your 6.5
Amen my dad has always used a 25-06 n always gotten an elk and deer he hand loads 120 grain hornady bullets I watched him shoot a deer at 250yrds n when that bullet hit that buck he did a cartwheel n landed with his d!#k in the dirt I watched him shoot an elk a @ 300yrds and that elk dropped like a pile of bricks landed on him I have my own 25-06 n hunt and the farthest shot I’ve made is 650yrds down a canyon at a 4 point buck when that bullet hit him he did some front cart wheels b4 sliding to a stop. We’ve since retired our rifles and started bow hunting my dad shot a 6×6 bull at 45 yards with a 100 gr broadhead n a carbon arrow but all and all I’ve seen the 25-06 out shoot in the field hunting the 300winmag, 270 30-06, 243, 7mm and b4 u all say it yes it has alot to do with the shooter but the 25-06 didn’t destroy the meat like the others.
Happy hunting get the big 1 n report POACHERS
What you Creed fanciers are overlooking is Hydrostatic Shock. The creed does not have the velocity to create hydrostatic shock past 150 metres because of the low initial velocity. The creed will fade as a hunting cartridge but in the mean time will help the sales of dogs for tracking wounded game.
I have a 2506 Ackley with a 23″ barrel shooting 110 Accubonds at 3250. It is extremely easy to hit with and kills well. But in fairness not as well as my 270.
My 270 Wby mag makes the creed lock like a share cropper,the creed is just cleaver marketing and the young and impressionable are buying into it whole hog.
Folks around my area are starting to call it the 6.5 Needmore. Lots of elk running off wounded.
I’ll take my 25-06 with the old Nosler 120 gr solid base bullets going 3250 anyday.
Stopped at a gun shop years ago on a Colorado elk hunt and could not belive how many 25-06’s were in this shop more then I had seen in my hole life. So after a few minutes I asked the owner were are your elk hunting guns at and his response was you are looking at them. I then made a dumb statement and said you all hunt elk with 25-06? His response was were are you from? Ohio I stated. His response was and you brought a 300 what? My response was Short mag. He then stated you guys bring too much gun and you don’t know how too shoot them. He was right in both accounts. i now own a 25-06
I would now love to see you now compare the 25-06 to the creed when you run your ballistics from 600yd to 1200yd. Or are you implying purely for short distance ??
Yup, just comparing out to 600, which I figure is about 300 yards longer than most of us big game hunters should be shooting at game anyway.
Exactly right! My 25-06 Mauser North American prints 3.5″ at 600 yards, off a bench, and that is about 200 yards further than any deer I have ever taken. Unless you put in a lot of “off hand” practice 400 yards is out of the reach of reliability for most hunters, and even that is ethically questionable.
Agreed. Even with a bipod, far fewer hunters that would like to admit can reliably shoot at more than 300 yards.
LOL!!
Because the magical 6.5 Creedmoor is going to CATCH UP AND PASS THE .25-06 between 600 and 1200 yards? That’s funny. Where were all you HUGE 6-6.5 mm “fans” for all of the DECADES during which a PILE of 6-6.5mm cartridges both SHORT-ACTION and LONG-ACTION “languished”? And the GUN GODS SMILED AND BLESSED US ALL WITH THAT ONE CARTRIDGE WE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED TO “BRIDGE THE GAP” BETWEEN .243 Winchester and .308 Winchester. Face it, fanboy. If it were the “6.5 Winchester” or “.264 Winchester” and didn’t have the COOL NAME with a BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF PROPAGANDA BEATING IT TO DEATH RIGHT ALONG WITH OTHER “REVOLUTIONARY” CARTRIDGES LIKE .338 Lapua and .300 Blackout that ALSO were the ANSWER TO OUR UNSPOKEN “PRAYERS” FOR YET ONE MORE .338 Magnum and another .308″ cartridge but in a “LIGHTWEIGHT” 8-10 lb. “AR15” because a “AR10” is just TOO BIG AND HEAVY AT 1-2 lbs more and/or DOESN’T HAVE ENOUGH MAG CAPACITY BECAUSE IT “ONLY” HAS 20-round mags.
And what is TRULY FREAKING HILARIOUS is the the SURE WAY to identify an absolute NOOB or at least CLUELESS “OLD-TIMER” is by a COMPLETE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF HOW HIGHLY RESPECTED PLAIN OLD .308 Winchester IS AND HAS BEEN FOR DECADES FOR “long-range shooting”. And when they’re absolutely oblivious to the fact that the available selection of .308 bullets makes the 6-7mm catalogs COMBINED LOOK PATHETIC its just more and more funny all the time.
Because yeah, you just CAN’T FIND GOOD ACCURATE “LONG-RANGE” BULLETS IN .308″ these days. Mainly because we’re so desperately short of .30-caliber .308″ cartridges in GENERAL IN THE U.S. I think we’re probably down to only a FEW DOZEN AT MOST!
THANK GOD 6.5 CREEDMOOR AND ITS DEVOTED FOLLOWERS AND KNOWERS OF ALL THINGS BALLISTIC ARE HERE TO PREVENT US FROM MAKING HORRIBLE MISTAKES THINKING WE CAN SHOOT “LONG-RANGE” WITH ANYTHING ELSE!
Whew. I read that while shouting the capitalized sections (in my head), and it sounded like a televangelist was going on about calibers.
Hallelujah.
Clearly you don’t quite grasp the science of ballistics. You denigrate others as “noob” while clearly revealing your ignorance as to the reasons these newer cartridges are superior and are selling well.
I own all in the comparison, 25-06, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 270 Win. They are all great calibers so I’m not knocking any of them. I’ve killed lots of big game up to moose with these calibers and they all do the job. My favorite though is the 6.5 Creedmoor out to 600 yards, if I’m expecting shots beyond that I move to my 6.5 STW or now 6.5-300 Weatherby. At traditional hunting distances 0-300 yards they are virtually indistinguishable other than you really need premium bullets in the 25-06 to prevent wide shallow wounding on shoulder shots up close or just shoot rib cage only and they will drop right there.
6.5 Swead will do all this and more in a modern rifle and thanks to the Creed good bullets are readly available.
I’ve had a savage 110 25-06 since 99. Heavy barrel makes it a pain to tote for long hunts but even the worst shooters I’ve taken to the range can’t miss with it. The thing truly shoots for itself. I’ve reloaded for it for years and it’s shoots the SST’s in front of a “book” rated charge of varget through the same hole at 100yards every time you pull the trigger. It’s a hog hammer especially when you put one through the ear hole. If Berger would build a 140gr version pushing a BC around .6 I’d rebarel it with a 1:8.5 and never look back!
This is a bad comparison a accurate comparison would have been to a 6.5-06 or possibly a 6.5 Nosler. Comparing a short action cartridge to a long action is an apples to oranges comparison. Comparing a round designed to shoot 1000yds at 400 isn’t ideal either.
Jared, you’re right, but my article wasn’t an attempt to compare the most closely related rounds. It was merely a detailed report of the 25-06 Rem. and comparing it to other, similar, popular rounds folks embrace for general big game hunting, not 1,000 yard target shooting. One can compare only so many things in an article before it becomes a major book. If I compared the 6.5-06 I could compare that against the 6.5-280 Ackley against the 264 Win. Mag., 26 Nosler, 6.5-300 Wby… Where would it end? But thanks for your insights!
I shoot deer and antelope with my 25-06 never failed me . My creedmoor is my long range rifle but my son hunts deer and antelope with it never failed him or me both are great calibers
I want to see a comparison between the 25-06 and the 6.5-06…. that would be more comparable. I love my creeds!
Ever hear of “load data”? There’s your comparison. Try reading for a change. Or better yet go do your own comparison. What the hell do you need to know how cartridges and guns you’re not familiar with or interested enough in to go look and learn for yourself for anyway?
Do you have anger issues when a person asks a question you don’t think doesn’t warrant an answer???
Chill dude. Adults are merely comparing notes and thoughts in this discussion. Seek anger management therapy.
With a name like “Jo Mama” what do you expect?
Love my 2506 it’s an h&r handi 26 inch bull .you put it in front of me I’m gonna hit it .love the quarter bores.no kick all punch
I can’t wait for a higher BC bullet for my .25-06 AI; any favorite loads for an Ackley out there??
I think the 25-06 is under rated I shoot 115 Bergers in my Remington Sendaro and love it. I have killed antelope,big horn sheep, to elk with it. A great round. Thanks for the article.
My solution was to build a 6.5-’06 so I could use the wide variety of 6.5mm bullets. My barrel is a 9″ twist Shilen cut at 23.6″ (600 mm), which will handle bullets up to 160 gr (the 165 gr Barnes Original is not sufficiently stable). I have burned a lot of MRP from this rifle, starting with the 140 gr Hornady Spire Point, and most recently with the 130 gr Berger.
I have a 25-06 ; a long range model by Remington. 26′ barrel, fiberglass (B&C) stock, and bedding block. It shoots nice out of the bock. I’ll bed it, and change to a long range 3.5-10x long range VX 3i scope. Off a good bipod, it will rule out to 600 meters. I am tempted to AI the rig, simply to slow brass flow and have a more efficient cartridge body and shoulder shape. In this slightly heavy for calibre version, there is minimal recoil, and maximum accuracy at distance. Only thing better would be a 6.5×65 RWS. Then I could specify a barrel twist that optimized for long range bullet around .6 BC. If this original barrel shows excellent accuracy, the answer will be to have Greg Tannel convert it into a 257 WBY. Choices, Choices, Choices, oy Vey.
I have a Remington 700 in .270 and I love it. I’ve been overlooking the 25-06 because I didn’t see a need for it. I’m not a hunter, but I love a straight shooting gun. Thanks for making me think.
My dad built me a 25-06 on a Mauser action with a Douglas barrel 25 years ago. It has taken many deer, antelope and elk. It has hardly no recoil and is a joy to shoot
Love Douglas barrels I have one matched up to a sako action in 7mm mag
26″ Douglas on a commercial FN Mauser. Douglas has always made good barrels. Shoots great. Getting ready to try some 90 grain Blitzkings through it for coyotes. Should get close to 3500 and the BC is decent.
27.5″ Douglas stainless air gaged barrel in Remington Mag contour chambered in .300 Dakota on a blue printed Winchester 70 action = .250″ groups using Barnes TTSX.
.257 wildcat based on the 7mm SAUM with 25″ Krieger stainless #1 = .5″ 5-shot groups with Nosler 110gr Accubonds @3510 fps. = .257 Why ballistics burning 10 grains or more less powder.
Favorite 6.5 = 6.5×47 Lapua. Operates at higher pressure than the Creedmoor, has a longer neck for seating bullets deeper without impinging powder space, and has the advantage of using small primers with small flash holes. You can’t buy better brass than the Lapua for 6.5×47. The Creedmoor is more popular because Hornady made ammo and brass for several years before it really caught on here in the last 3 or 4. Ballistically, it is a wash between the Creedmoor and the Lapua. Brass and ammo are certainly easier to get for the Creedmoor. But for discerning handloaders, the Lapua is much easier to load super accurate ammo for, no matter the range nor the purpose intended.
Not a very good comparison article. From 600 to 1000 yards, the creedmoor would have killed both of them by a long shot. Never mentioning the fact that the creedmoor is a short action cartridge and both the others are long. Also using one of the heaviest 6.5 bullets comparing to the other two cartridges and sways the performance metrics on this in favor of the others on short distance data. In short, bad article, cherry picked bullets, half truths, no standard comparison and a lack of ballistics knowledge contribute to a sub par article…
Hi Ethan, I appreciate your insights, but what I tried to compare were highest BC available bullets in each of the cartridges at maximum MV as indicated by Hornady, Nosler, Berger handloading manuals. I don’t know how I can get more fair than that. My objective was not to compare all short action or long action rounds, just popular deer hunting cartridges in order to give perspective to the 25-06 Rem. If we don’t compare the -06 to cartridges with similar ballistics, how can readers make an assessment? Now, comparing a 339 Lapua Mag. to a 6.5 CM — that would be an unfair comparison. Finally, I’m not selling 25-06s. I have one of those and 3 6.5 Creedmoors. I don’t care what you or anyone else shoots. I’m just sharing interesting data on cartridges so readers can make up their own minds. Cheers.
Yeah. BULLETS ARE ALSO MAGICALLY PULLING OFF “COME FROM BEHIND VICTORIES” YOU GUN-IGNORANT EMBARRASSMENT TO EVEN YOUR FELLOW “NOOBS”. JUST LIKE THERE HASN’T EVER BEEN A 6.5 mm “short-action” cartridge available EVER in the entire history of the world EVER and even if 6.5 Creedmoor were called “.264 Winchester SHORT” (as opposed to .264 Winchester MAGNUM which was 6.5 MILLIMETER AND A DAMN SIGHT “BETTER” SO-CALLED “LONG-RANGE CARTRIDGE” but is “unknow today) you’d STILL LOVE IT FOR ITS AMAZING AND MYSTERIOUS AND MAGICAL “LONG-RANGE CAPABILITIES” AND NOT JUST BECAUSE ALL YOUR “GUN EXPERT HEROES” AT THE RANGE AND GUN SHOWS AND GUN SHOPS AND BLOGS AND FSRUMS AND MAGAZINE ARTICLES AND YOUTUBE VIDEOS AND THE LIKE TOLD YOU TO GO OUT AND GET ONE AND THE COOL NAME SOLD YOU! You bet. You’re so INTO GUNS you don’t know about the other dozen or so 6-7mm commercial, proprietary and “wildcat” cartridges that have been around CLEARLY one HELL of a lot longer than you’ve been alive or at least been paying attention to guns. I’ll bet you’re a big .338 Lapua/.300 Blackout fan too, right? Or did that end when they “failed to be adopted” by the “U.S. military” and your dreams of “cheap available ammo” died with them? Or maybe your .338 Lapua died itself 1000-1500 “overpressure” rounds into your “long-range career” or your allowance wouldn’t/won’t cover “long-range shooting” with an “extreme long range” cartridge like .338 Lapua. Regardless, if you weren’t just a fanboy and had any concept of the whole reason we have about a billion different cartridges and more coming all the time is because NONE OF THEM ARE “PERFECT” OR EVEN “IDEAL” OR “ACCEPTABLE FOR EVERYONE AT ALL TIMES FOR ALL USES, you wouldn’t be here DEFENDING A CARTRIDGE LIKE IT MIGHT GET ITS FEELINGS HURT OR SOMETHING. What are you, 12 years old? Or more like 5 still believing in Santa and the Easter Bunny and that “machines” and “objects” are PEOPLE TOO? Got THOMAS THE TANK ENGINE TO GO WITH YOUR 6.5 CREEDMORE ISSUES, DO YOU?
Want me to jog on over to ShootersCalculator.com and “run some numbers” for you while you go take a nap and maybe have mommy rock you so you’re in a better mood when you get the truth as far as your little hypothetical “600-1000” fantasy Creedmoor comeback goes or are you “so over” 6.5 Creedmoor and on to the NEXT BIG THING CARTRIDGE that’s a REHASH somebody dug up from the past and is RERUNNING FOR FUN AND PROFIT BECAUSE FOOLS LIKE YOU CARE MORE ABOUT BEING “FASHIONABLE” THAN YOU DO ABOUT BEING FOOLS?
Take your li thi um….
Hmmm…I have a delightful Remington 700ti in 30-06, an early version with the pencil barrel. Wonderful gun to carry, but when you unleash a stout .30 cal. Bullet you know you’ve done something of import! I’m no particularly Recoil shy, but less would be nice. Any recommendations on a good barrelmakerfor a tube to match that of my factory barrel’s profile, rifled for mid-to-heavy bullets, in stainless? Twist rates an style?
McGowen barrels can do all you wish. And even the 7mm-08 in that model hurt to shoot. I can’t imagine what a max load of Reloader 19 with a 200gr bullet would feel like coming from an ’06 in the 700 Titanium!
Get a threaded barrel so you can use a muzzle brake. I think that the positive aspects of a muzzle brake out way the negative aspects.
Your article has some value to people that have this cartiridge but its a long action cartridge with more power and shoots just that. The 6.5 Creedmoor is short action a shoots a better BC bullets. It will always be superior in ballistics and bullet choice IMHO.
Is the objective to target or match shoot or to cleanly and humanely kill an animal at a reasonable range? Caliber selection is a personal choice based upon goals and objectives. The 6.5, 270, 25-06 all seem to be able to kill game animals humanely within 300-400 yards. As will the .338, .300wm, 308 and 30-06. Thank you Ron for the informative article.
I think your article sucks Ronald .
You should compare cartridges with ballistically efficient projectiles of similar sectional density to make it a fair comparo .
My 6.5 Creedmoor loads changes your findings very favorably to the 6.5 for trajectory, drift & impact..
Well, I appreciate your opinion, Beau. But I don’t know how much fairer I could get than to compare the highest BC bullets I could find for each at the highest MVs for each. Comparing a 95-gr. in the 6.5 CM against, say, a 120-gr. in the 25-06 wouldn’t have been fair. Or velocities from a 20″ bl. in one and a 26″ in another. My objective was to explain what the 25-06 Rem is and put it in perspective for us average deer/elk/coyote hunters. Comparing it to well-known, similar MV and bullet weight rounds like the 6.5 CM and 270 Win. seemed reasonable. Would you have wanted me to compare it to a 223 Rem and 50 BMG?
Considering .25-06 burns up to 20 grains more powder than the 6.5 Creedmoor I would say the comparison is apples to smoked sausage. LoL
Now compare the “great” .25-06 to a 6.5 cartridge that uses almost the exact same powder charge (.264 Win Mag) and the .25-06 doesn’t look so outstanding.
Not that I think it’s a bad round. I actually think it is a neat cartridge but I believe in keeping comparisons comparable, if that makes sense.
Hi Jared. Yes, powder capacity is one way to rank/consider/compare cartridges. I prefer to compare based on relative uses, i.e. deer rounds as opposed to elephant rounds. In the vast middle ground of deer/elk cartridges most of us consider for our hunting, the 25-06 Rem. is as comparable as anything else from .243 Win through the 300 magnums. My intent is merely to provide readers with a good perspective on how things compare in MV, drop, drift and energy. And, contrary to the assumptions of many readers, I did not claim the 25-06 was a superior cartridge to the 6.5 Creedmoor. BTW, while tuning up some rifles for Branded Rock Canyon shooting school yesterday, I shot a Blaser R8 in 6.5 Creedmoor that clumped 4 Hornady 143-gr. ELD-X into .390″ at 100 yards. On the downside, the av. velocity was around 2,560 fps. Going to be a lot of drop to contend with.
Ron,
Great article! I would have never given the 25-06 a second look without it. However, your comments on creating longer, more slippery bullets, is the most interesting part of your article. I have on several occasions, after getting into the 6.5 game (creedmoor and grendel), wondered why bullet makers were not creating longer/heavier bullets for different calibers to achieve a higher b/c.
I know barrel twist could be an issue but longer bullets in necked down cartridges seems like a great fit. Why not work that magic in something like a 30-338 win mag for the large/dangerous game? One would assume the recoil would be more manageable and the round would be more accurate in the field (less windage). Perhaps my example isn’t the most ideal or wouldn’t fit a nitch, but I see the market going that way. I think some older cartridges will be revisited and some will regain popularity.
Justin, I believe high B.C. bullets will continue to proliferate and I hope rifle manufacturers will begin putting faster twist barrels on many older cartridges to meet shooter demand. The common complaint about long bullets intruding on powder space is much ado about nothing. I’m more than willing to give up a few fps MV in exchange for the superior ballistic performance of a high B.C. projectile.
I have a 25 Gibbs with a 26 in. Douglas air gauged barrel. The 264 win mag or the 257 wby. Don`t really shine all that much. the 6.5 Gibbs with a 140 wt. bullet, is something to behold.
20 grains more powder, huh? That’s odd given the fact that 6.5 Creedmoor is basically “.264 Winchester “Short” and nothing but a step above .243 and below .308 and .308 surely can’t do the same thing .30-06 does with “20 grains less powder”. You sure you’re not talking out of your hat there, gun expert? Never mind. I’ve got a Hornady manual right here. I don’t rely on internet “experts” for ANYTHING like even remotely “reliable” information when it comes to anything that goes bang. Not since the “cartridge of the month club” became the “illiterate tools who have no idea there hasn’t been a truly “new” cartridge created since the last truly new guns were created decades and centuries ago started running the “education system” of the “gun community”.
I have used 30-06,7mm rem improved, 270, 25-06 and 6mm weatherby. I have still got the 25-06, excellent for Australian conditions. Buffalo excepted.
I’d be willing to tackle buf. with a 25-06 and the right bullet. A buddy and I took a couple of your Aus. buf. with 140-grain Failsafe bullets from 270 WSSMs about 12 years ago. Two shots on one, three on the other.
Seems to me that with all 6.5 frenzy going on right now the 6.5-06 would be a cartridge of great interest.
Thanks Gene. Good observation. I’ll cover the 6.5-06 in a future post.
6.5’s are popular today, but it’s still hard to get ammo for my 6.5×55. Pity it’s not interchangeable with the Creedmore, because that ammo’s everywhere.
20 grains more powder, huh? That’s odd given the fact that 6.5 Creedmoor is basically “.264 Winchester “Short” and nothing but a step above .243 and below .308 and .308 surely can’t do the same thing .30-06 does with “20 grains less powder”. You sure you’re not talking out of your hat there, gun expert? Never mind. I’ve got a Hornady manual right here. I don’t rely on internet “experts” for ANYTHING like even remotely “reliable” information when it comes to anything that goes bang. Not since the “cartridge of the month club” became the “illiterate tools who have no idea there hasn’t been a truly “new” cartridge created since the last truly new guns were created decades and centuries ago started running the “education system” of the “gun community”.
UPDATE: As I figured you’re pretty much full of it. First of all for proposing a “comparison” between two intentionally “incomparable” cartridges and then for grossly generalizing the “data” and making yourself look like a fool in the process. As is typical of ALL cartridges its the LIGHTER BULLETS IN BOTH that are the “powder hogs” in terms of “energy per grain”. And while .25-06 can give 3500-3600 fps performance from its lightest bullets with powder charges in the mid-40s the AMAZING 6.5 Creedmoor with bullets 20-25 grains heavier uses similar charges of different powders (its PRICE PER POUND at least as much as CHARGE WEIGHT that determines “cost efficiency” of cartridges you Creedmoor fanboys have no qualms about throwing EXPENSIVE BULLETS AT TO SHOOT AT “LONG RANGE” TARGETS MOST OF YOU WON’T HIT A QUARTER OF THE TIME AT BEST but yet suddenly turn “conservative” about if one of a PILE of “competitors” in the 6-6.5mm “community” challenges your hero cartridge.
And if .25-06 is just too “wasteful” for you I can load up some .30-06 with similar powder charges to what Creedmoor needs for its “heavy” bullets and blow past those slugs like they’re standing still with the same amount of powder pushing a .308″ bullet. Or just use your beloved 6.5 Creedmoor’s TRUE “parent cartridge” .308 and do it. I say “true parent cartridge” because one of the endless “reliable sources” of “gun knowledge” online aka Wikipedia claims “.30TC” is the “parent cartridge” of 6.5 Creedmoor even though there isn’t nearly as much “family resemblance” compared to .308. They’ve also claimed that “.300 Savage” is the “parent cartridge” of .308 Winchester which is odd since I can make and have made .300 Savage cases out of .308 but I don’t think I can the “other way” since going from .308 to .300 Savage involved sizing and then trimming the cases to produce a shorter overall case/neck.
Back to the .25-06/6.5 comparison. Since 6.5 is one of Hornady’s very “expensive” babies that a HUGE amount of money was dumped into creating, promoting, shilling, propagandizing and “encouraging” manufacturers to chamber guns for its understandable that as usual with “close” competitor cartridges a REAL COMPARISON between DIFFERENT CALIBERS is impossible. Both have 100-grain SP bullets but not IDENTICAL 100-grain SPs since the .25-06 version is an “Interlock”. However, they’re close enough to do an apples to a different “breed” of apples comparison where .25-06 DOES NEED more powder to produce similar velocities but nowhere near the “20 grains” you claim. A LONG list of powders is applicable for each with ZERO overlap as expected since Hornady is SELLING 6.5 CREEDMOOR HARD AGAINST AN ALREADY CROWDED FIELD OF DIRECT COMPETITORS (if you’re interested in “saving powder” you should look into 6.5 Grendel) and you CAN “waste” 20 grains more powder on 25-06 if you want or you can “waste” more powder on 6.5 Creedmoor if you want depending on velocities. But the most “direct” and “fair” comparisons show 8-12 more grains of powder for .25-06 in the “mid-range” of velocities, accuracies and powder charges. Those 8-12 grains more powder in the .25-06 are going to cost you about 4-5 cents more per round.
And of course if I’m going “head to head” with the LEGENDARY LONG-RANGE POWERHOUSE 6.5 CREEDMOOR WITH A .25-06 I think I’ll go with the 75-grain bullets at 3500 or so fps which only takes another few cents worth of powder.
Or if I want to go Remington I could go .260 Remington and have a MUCH more direct and legitimate comparison? Shall we do THAT ONE and see how your super-cartridge fares?
Truth be told, a man riding by on a fast horse cannot tell the difference between the three. I love my 25-06 AI and I love my 270 WSM. Just don’t see how a 6.5 will add any value for my rifle hunting whitetails. I almost always carry my Mathews to the deer woods but still love to shoot. Great read.
Ear splitting muzzle blast that is uncomfortable even with ear plugs. This makes the 25-06 a no go for me! Yes it is flat, very accurate with mild recoil but no matter what, the super sharp muzzle blast is not comparable to the other firearms that were mentioned.
Kevin, I’d love to see some measured sound levels from the 25-06 and 270 Win. I can’t imagine how they would be much different given they both shoot the same volume of powder at nearly identical velocities. Regardless, wear ear plugs when you shoot any firearms, even 22 rimfire.
I’ve got a 25-284 on a Mauser action. Had it for around35 years. According to P.O.Ackley Handbook for Shooters, volume ll , it is similar to the 25-06 ballistically ,but is better adapted to a short action, hence 284 Winchester. According to Mr. Ackley, a 120 Gr bullet loaded over 50.5 grains of 4350 will achieve 3100 FPS. I no longer have dies for it, but I’ll bet I could probably get some from RCBS. I never had a chrono in those days, but it was a shooter for sure !!!
Ron,
This is simply a great article. Here’s another factor too; financial. Running a quick ammoseek check I can find a box of Winchester 6.5 125gr for $16.23. On the other side I can buy Privi 90gr 25-06 for $13.99/box. Yes, not a big difference, but who has only one box of ammo? It just means you pay less per pound of backstraps.
I grew up shooting Dad’s .25-06 at deer as a kid. Until the 6.5 CM came around I wouldn’t have considered another gun. Fun memories for me and a really great round that sadly seems to be fading into the background. My father also killed an elk with his, so more evidence if needed that 120 grains can kill most anything on hooves.
Love your article. Thanks for throwing the numbers together for us.
I think the other stand out in this comparison is the humble 270 Win. It at least equals if not betters the 6.5 Creedmore with identical/similar weight bullets. i do note that the current Hornady range includes a 145gr ELD-X with the BC (G1) = .536 which ought to do significantly better than the bullet listed.
With the popularity of the 270, second only to its parent case, this ought to suit a lot of hunters out there with rifles chambered to this outstanding cartridge.
I built two rifles for my North American battery: A 25-06 and .35 Whelen.
It’s good to be a little different.
Once these guys talk you out of 25-06 being legitimate, please send your brass my way.
I appreciate your sentiment, Christian. Good two choices for all N.A. But don’t hold your breath on the brass. I’m keeping mine!
I like the idea of the .35 Whelen mainly because it’s so different. .35 calibers just haven’t caught on. As far as I know only Marlin still makes rifles chambered for the .5 Remington, and I bet they don’t set any sales records, the .358 Winchester survives only in the BLR and the .350 Remington Magnum is obsolescent. It looks as if the Whelen could well be the last survivor.
Peter, you are right on. 35 calibers seem to be stuck in never-never land. We rally round the .30s, a few .338s for elk and moose, but then jump right to .375 for any larger game. I’ve yet to hunt with a 35 Whelen, but have taken some feral hogs and coyotes with a 358 Win. Nice round.
Well with superformance Hornady ammo in my 35 whelan. I am shooting less than one inch groups at 100 yards and dropping large game with one shot. Love the superformance ammo.
I read an article some years back about the “efficiency” of cartridges. The 35’s were top dogs and the worst was anything in a 7mm magnum.
I’m afraid the author of that piece missed the mark, David. The 264 Win. Mag., 220 Swift, 26 Nosler would be less efficient than most 7mm magnums. And some 375s, 416s and 458s would be more efficient. It’s really not about 7mm or even 6.5mm so much as powder volume vs. bore diameter. The larger the powder charge and smaller the bore, the lower the efficiency. Regardless, my take on efficiency is “so what?” The truck I drive to my hunts is inefficient, too. When I need to deliver a bullet to collect my game, I’m not concerned about efficiency so much as ballistic performance. If burning an extra 10 grain of powder makes the difference between hit and miss, I’ll burn it. Of course, with laser rangefinders and a known ballistic curve, shooters can make relatively slow, efficient cartridges do the job. Fortunately, we US citizens have the option to choose among dozens of cartridges and rifles. So, whatever you choose to shoot, efficient or inefficient, enjoy!
Great article! Too bad it was wasted on creed lovers! I own, shoot and reload the 6.5 CM, .25-06 and 270 WIN. All are special and unique ballistically in my opinion. I have and will continue to use my guns as tools…as in the right tool for the right job! Whatever that job might be. Cheers.
Over the years I have owned, among others, a 30/06, two .308s, a 7mmRemMag, two .270s, two 6.5 Swedes, a .260Rem, a .257 Roberts, two 25/06s, a 6mmRem and a couple of .243s…
I am a hunter not a target shooter, and I would probably not take a shot past 400yds.
Because I am not a big guy at 5’6″, I have elected to keep my actions mostly short these days..
Because I am no longer young, I will never again own a 30/06, .308, 7mmRemMag or a .270.
I still have a 6.5 Swede, a .260 Rem. and a .243, which cover all my needs…
I prefer the killing performance of a 25/06 over a .270 any day, and would consider owning another if I had a use for it… and I still regret selling the .257Roberts!
Ron, what is the point of this article? Are you suggesting someone looking to buy a rifle that would take most North American game pick one in 25-06? Would that be the best choice? In reality, the hot cartridges of this decade may be gone in the next decade. On paper, your stats on the 25-06 look good. In reality, I still prefer the 270. First, it is available where ever ammo is sold. Can the same be said of the 25-06? What about bone crushing power? You compared the 25-06 at 115 gr. to the 270 at 145 gr. Which is more likely to break shoulder bones on an Elk? As you know, cartridges come and go, but the classics endure. The 270 is and will continue to be a classic. There is a reason for that. It is a great all around cartridge. In practical terms, if you had to buy just one rifle would you recommend that be in 25-06?
The point of this article is to examine the history and performance of the 25-06 Remington cartridge and put it in perspective. Readers can make up their own minds about its suitability for their brand of hunting. I compare it to a couple of “middle -of-the-road” popular hunting cartridges to enhance relevancy. I think that too often we hunters/shooters compare cartridges by bullet weight, velocity and “reputation” more than by physical performance numbers like drop, drift and remaining energy. So long as MV and bullet BC are identical, so are drop and drift regardless of weight. The heavier of the two will always carry more energy at all distances. How much difference that retained energy makes on the target depends on where it is struck, the construction of the bullet that strikes it, and the physical condition of the animal at the time of the impact. I would not recommend the 25-06 Rem. as the world’s best all-round, do-everything cartridge. But for anyone needing a deer/antelope/sheep/coyote/rock chuck/hog round with some elk hunting thrown into the mix, it’s certainly as good a contender as the 270 Win., 6.5 Creedmoor and many similar rounds. I might consider it an ideal mule deer/coyote/antelope round.
Good point Ron. However, consider the 6 mm Rem versus the 243 Win. The 6 mm looks better on paper than the 243, but good luck finding ammo for it. I think ammo availability is an important point. Even though I am a scientific kind of guy, being a physicist, I prefer the 243 because I can get ammo for it almost everywhere ammo is sold. If I want to sell the rifle down the road, which I rarely do, the 243 would retain more value. The reason is it’s popular. The 243’s “reputation” makes it easier to sell. By the way, I never used the phrase “world’s best all-round, do-everything cartridge.” You set up a strawman and then shot it down. Here is what I said: “In practical terms, if you had to buy just one rifle would you recommend that be in 25-06?” Based on your answer, I think you would. I can respect that, but I also disagree.
Louis: Good observations re. the 6mm Rem. and 243 Win. Those are valid reasons for selecting one cartridge over another. In most of my “ballistic” and cartridge description articles like this 25-06 piece, I’m addressing history and performance characteristics rather than more pragmatic concerns such as ammo cost or availability, trusting that readers can assess these on their own. I am not advocating for one cartridge over the other. As stated in the last paragraph of my 25-06 post, “…the old 25-06 Remington runs neck and neck with the 270 Win. and 6.5 Creedmoor. If you have a 25-06, celebrate it. If you don’t, start shopping. The 25-06 Remington is one of the mildest recoiling, flattest shooting, wind defying, overlooked medium hunting cartridges in our arsenal.” Last but not least, in reply to your previous letter I wrote that I MIGHT consider the 25-06 AN (not THE) mule deer/coyote/antelope round. So, please, do not buy one under the mistaken assumption that I think it ideal. Heck, I can’t even make up my own mind about which cartridges are ideal. Darned if I’m going to start telling others what is best for them! Whatever rounds and rifles you ultimately choose, Louis, I’m wishing you successful shooting and pleasant times afield!
Thank you for your reply, Ron. I generally share your views. If someone owns a 25-06, then great. Enjoy the rifle. Having read much on the 25-06, it undoubtedly has its merits. However, my advice to someone who is starting out in our sport would be to buy a rifle in a classic caliber, not the latest trend setter. Therefore, my vote would go to the 270, not the 25-06 or 6.5 Creed, even though both are highly regarded in the shooting community. As far as recoil, that is a matter of muzzle energy, as you know. The 270 with a 140 gr. bullet has about 2700 ft-lbs of energy, 25-06 with a 120 gr. about 2400 ft-lbs. Therefore, the 25-06 has about 10% less recoil than a 270, in theory. Felt recoil will depend on numerous other factors, such as rifle weight and the recoil pad. When I am hunting, I am not aware of recoil. My focus is on making a good shot. At the bench, after shooting a box of almost any caliber, I become aware of recoil. That is my reality. Will the 25-6 become a classic? In fifty years or so, we will know. I truly enjoy your articles and I am sure others do as well. Many who read your article may not have much experience. For example, I have never gone to Africa, but your articles on African hunting are a good primer and are also “pragmatic.” For what it is worth, I suggest you consider adding a paragraph or two on the pragmatic aspects of any cartridge you review for those new to the sport. I also know that no shooting topic garners more controversy than one comparing the merits of a cartridge. Look at all the comments you received on this article. Everyone has their own idea of the best cartridge for a given category of game. I’m sure you knew your article would stir some controversy, as it did, and your comments are fair. I also wish you and your readers “successful shooting and pleasant times afield!”
LOUIS, Good idea on the pragmatic aspects of cartridges. I’ll try to do that in future posts!
great article, honest with facts to back it up,, i have been shooting, loaded up 6.5 swedes for years and they pretty much are identical to the 6.5 creedmore,,and have shot 25-06s for as long,, always seemed to me the 25-06 shot flatter and hit harder, and did a little more damage on game,,,and was just as accurate as the 6.5s,,,now i only shoot out to around 600 yards, but thats far enough for either cartridge on game shooting,,,,and while i like the 6.5s ,i think the 25-06 is the better cartridge,,,,
Having owned all three of your subjects, I enjoyed your fine article comparing them. The .25-06 is a great cartridge as you pointed out and is one of my favorites. If you are looking for a higher BC bullet for the quarterbore, take a look at the JLK 108 VLD with its .50 BC. JLK bullets are great projectiles for paper or game.
A VLD .257 would be welcomed, Mike, but is there a typo in JLK 108 VLD? I think you’d need more like a 128-gr. in .257 to make .50 BC.
Ron ———-
Interesting comment about looking at the 6.5-06(like that cartridge).
Perhaps a future article would be an evaluation and comparison of 6.5-06 vs. 6.5-284 Norma Mag ?
Keep up the good articles !!!
JPT
Thanks for the article, Ron. On thing you didn’t touch on was barrel life. To achieve that flat trajectory, the 25-06 is leaving the barrel at 3150 fps. The 6.5 Creed is doing a “paltry” 2750. That difference in MV is going to keep the 6.5 shooting accurately for a lot longer than the 25-06. If you only shoot a buck every year with the 25-06, maybe you don’t care, but if you like to shoot it on a regular basis, you’ll be looking at rebarreling at a faster rate. The high BC of the 6.5 will help it retain its velocity and total energy longer, which compensates somewhat for the lower MV. All three of these have a max point blank range of about 300 yards, which is generally sufficient for most hunting shots. If you want to shoot anything beyond that range, you better be ranging it and using a ballistic table to adjust the shot, whatever the round, and at those distances, a wind call becomes much more significant.
Anyway, as I said, good article. I think I’d buy the 6.5 Creed for the weight savings of a short action combined with reasonable availability of factory loads.
Right you are, Dave. My take on the barrel life issue, however, is like this: if my objective is to have a barrel last forever, I’ll shoot a 22 rimfire. When I’m gearing up for a big game hunt in which energy and longer range performance could make the difference between venison and tag soup, to heck with barrel life! Hunters have been choosing low barrel life for 100 years. That said, if I were trying to win long range shooting competitions with a rifle/barrel that remained accurate and consistent for thousands of rounds, but all means, barrel life matters. BTW, your comments on point blank range are spot on. The additional reach we get from magnum velocities (BC being the same) is the reason they’re of benefit to hunters. It’s not the extra energy. Good points, Dave. Thanks.
If energy is really what you’re after, then you really want the .270, no? Or the 6.5 Creed. The 25-06 is just a small bullet pushed to high velocity, which therefore shoots slightly flatter. But that doesn’t matter much at hunting distances inside 300 yards. But the 25-06 bullet is lighter and won’t carry the same energy down range when all is said and done.
So, advantages of the 25-06:
1. Shoots flat
Disadvantages of the 25-06:
1. Relatively more obscure, which means higher prices or forces hand loading
2. Lower carried energy down range
3. Shorter barrel life
I guess I’m not seeing the attraction of the 25-06. If you like playing with obscure cartridges, that’s fine, but there is nothing to particularly recommend the 25-06 beyond the flatter trajectory, which I think isn’t as big of an advantage for normal hunting distances inside 300 yards. For everything else, I’d go in favor of the 6.5 or the .270, with the advantage to the 6.5 for weight savings of the short action.
Dave, my article on the 25-06 wasn’t written to slight the 270 or 6.5 CM, nor to recommend the 25-06 over them. It was written to compare the three so that readers could better appreciate how closely 25-06 performance matches them. As the ballistic data in my article shows, 25-06 does indeed shoot flatter. It’s energy comes within 200 f-p of the 270 Win. at 600 yds and deflects in 10 mph wind only 2 inches more than the 6.5 CM. To me the differences among all these are insufficient to declare any vastly superior. You and all shooters are wise to consider such pragmatic concerns as ammo availability, price, etc. I handload so… As for shorter barrel life, unless you’re shooting hundreds of rounds a year, a 25-06 should last a lifetime or more. I don’t worry about bl. life in hunting rifles. I don’t worry much about downrange energy, either, since energy doesn’t kill unless you strike central nervous system, and then a 22 LR will usually do the trick. Regardless what you choose, I hope it works well for you!
Nice article Ron, My father shot a Ruger #1b in 25-06. He had shot many Michigan bucks with it. Before Alzheimer’s took him away my father wanted my wife to have that rife. That 25-06 rem is in good hands . Mary has shot whitetails and antelope with confidence . No fuss or muss. Just flat lays animals out.
THANK YOU AGAIN RON
Ron, that is what the JLK website states, .50 BC and 108 grain bullet. Check it out….
I have their 80 grain VLD .224 with a BC of .51 and their 105 VLD 6mm with a .56 BC. I have not ordered the 108 in .257 yet.
Mike, I checked the JLK website and you are correct. They are advertising a 108-gr. .257″ bullet they rate .500. Now I have to be convinced this BC rating is accurate. The picture of the bullet sure doesn’t scream .50 BC to me. But the proof is in the pudding. Has anyone tested this .50 BC claim on the range? Maybe JLK uses gold instead of lead?
It’s refreshing to see caliber advice that’s actually useful. Not like the item I read online recently that recommended the 300 Savage as a fine deer caliber. It surely is, but considering it hasn’t been chambered in any new rifles for almost twenty years it’s scarcely a practical choice!
I bought my first .25-06 last year, a Model 70 Winchester Sporter with a 24-inch bbl. and used it to hunt mule deer, whitetails and turkeys. I topped the rifle with a Leupold 4-12x scope, with long-range duplex crosshairs that can take a shooter out to 500 yards with ease. With this particular rifle, a 100 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, driven by 53 grains of VitaVourhi 160 powder will top 3,300 fps and group extremely tight for me. Better, the bullet’s impact on big game is exceptional. Here in South Dakota, I took a nice mule deer spot-and-stalk with it, followed by a really nice East River whitetail. That bullet really does the job. I’ve also had some good group success — equal to the 100 gr. NBTs, and striking very close to their zero point so there’s no adjustment — with 115 gr. Berger VLD Hunting bullets, but I’m not nuts about their performance on that muley. The Noslers brought him down, the Bergers did not, despite a well placed shot. Perhaps the Bergers need a bigger, harder target, like an elk to offer peak performance. Botom line: I’ve become a major fan of this “old” cartridge and my new rifle and look forward to doing a whole lot more hunting this year with it — pronghorn tag in particular. I still love my 7 mags — a S&W 1500 bought in 1982 that shoots like dream with 140 gr. NBTs driven by RL22, and Model 70 Super Grade from 1989 that shoots 150 gr. Nosler Long Range Accubonds with alacrity. But that .25-06 is my go to deer and antelope rifle now.
BIBS makes a 110gr .257 bullet with a BC of .52. I have not attempted to hunt with them leaning toward the partitions with my 25-06.
Ron:
you sure have touched a cord with this one. i love how possessive we all get about our favorite rifle/caliber choices. You would have fared better and received less vile spewing if you had insulted our wives! You are too much of a gentleman for that.
great article though, I loved it.
have not had much experience with the 25.06 till this past July in Namibia. Using a borrowed 25.06 with 117 grain Nosler BT handloaded to just over 3000 fps I was able to take 24 head of game with 25 shots. the 52 inch Kudu bull took two, and i am not sure why once we saw the placement of the first shot. i must admit that the first 19 were brain shots, as I was culling for meat. One was a mountain zebra body shot entered behind the last rib. The bullet was found in the back of the lung on the off side. As you know these are big bodied animals. I was impressed. Being a huge fan of the 7MM Rem mag I would have preferred 160 or 175 grain Partitions or Swift A-Frames but the 25.06 proved worthy of the task.
People talk of barrel life but most will never shoot out a good barrel. Years ago my Namibian “brother” registered a Kreiger, cut rifled barreled Sako action, 7MM Rem Mag i had built. I asked him to keep track of how many rounds he put through it. He culled oryx mostly. He cleaned the rifle after every day’s use, and he logged all shots including periodic site ins.
His bullet of choice was 150 grain Nosler BT. We finally replaced the barrel after 4000 rounds because the groups opened up to 2 inches at 100 meters.
Good job, Ron. I realize I am replying a little late to this article. Very well written article. I have had a 25-06 (S&W M1500) since I was fourteen and living out in South Dakota. At the time it was the right gun for taking pronghorn and deer. I think it is still one of the best choices for shooting in the western part of South Dakota. Load a little lighter bullets for the pronghorn and a little heavier bullets for the deer. The 25-06 can also be loaded lighter than the 6.5 Creedmoor and 270 for going after coyote or even prairie dogs. The 75 grain Hornady VMax makes a mess out of anything it hits. It really comes down to what the end user wants to do with the gun. The 6.5 Creedmoor is an awesome short action round. I have two .308 guns (AR10 and bench rest gun) that have a hard time keeping up with the Creedmoor but are still very good and can handle heavier bullets. What the industry has realized is that there is a niche for the 6.5 Creedmoor and short action variants. They work well both in AR platforms and bolt guns and that means more volume and an easier business decision about promoting a new mainstream “wildcat” round. What has changed a bit in the USA is that there is more competition target shooting now than ever before involving more of the general public and this also plays into what becomes the next best cartridge. It is all good. Whatever promotes shooting either for hobby, sport, or hunting is good for all of us. Get out and enjoy whatever shooting activity you are involved in.
I am planning on picking up a TC Compass in 6.5 Creedmoor to experiment with. Currently going for $225 after rebate from several retailers. Imagine a gun that can perform out to 1000 yards for sub $250 minus scope. We will see how it works out. I reload all of my ammo so it gives me an opportunity to have some more fun with statistical trial and error setting up some new loads. A little cost for reloading startup for the 6.5 Creedmoor but I will recoup the cost soon.
Cheers,
David
I like your philosophy, David.
25-06 is a dead caliber for many reasons.. comparing calculations to reality is just that.
Ask Jerry Miculek why, of all the guns and calibers, he chose 6.5 Creedmoor in a TC Compass for his successful African hunt???????????
Did Mr. Miculek have a T/C logo on his clothing or is he receiving compensation for using that rifle? Was there a T/C cameraman nearby filming the hunt? Was he comped the hunt due to his reputation? Nice that he had a successful safari. My son and I have hunted the Limpopo area of South Africa three times. No cameras. No sponsors. We paid. All we had was a Ruger .30-06 and wonderful hosts. When we go back in 2019 to “Free State” South Africa…my Rem 700 .25-06 will be along. It’s becoming very popular there. Our PH is building one right now and he used a .270 for years before we met him. Match the cartridge to the hunt with the PH’s permission. The 6.5 CM is a newer cartridge with minimal history in South Africa. It was likely an advertising safari. The 7×57(Jack O’Connor’s favorite) and 6.5x55SE are much more popular there.
Its great to hear about the 25-06, its been a go to rife for years for me. The other rife i use is the 284 win, and it will do better in all bullets weights then a 25-06.
Around 1985 I owned an 8 X 57 Chilean Mauser. I did not enjoy hunting with it because of the military sights. I was determined to either have it converted to a sporting rifle or sell it. I asked the opinion of my gunsmith as I wanted something different (not a bread-and-butter cartridge). He suggested the .25-06 and I have never looked back. This cartridge will do anything I will ever require of it with less recoil.
I found a hardly used Ithaca gun company import of a Tikka in 25-06 that’s production # put it at around 1975. It came with factory 1″ rings. I replaced the b & l scope with a Sightron big sky 3-9. Took a nice buck in Northeast WA first year out. Beautifully crafted rifle and a great bullet. Always like hearing more about the under utilized 25-06.
I just came across your article tonight and what a great read, especially for a 25-06 guy. The numbers back up what 25-06 shooters know, it just plain works and works very well.
I own rifles in all three calibers, the 6.5 Creedmoor, 270 Winchester and the 25-06. It was very easy to get caught up in all that I was reading and just had to try the Creed. After extensive hand loading and target shooting to ring out all its greatness I found one grounding revelation. You pull the trigger, it goes bang and you feel the recoil that is about the same in all three calibers. That is when I realized the confidence and success I have gained over the years hunting with the 25-06 due to it’s hard hitting, fast killing, flat shooting and light recoiling performance has made me realize I am satisfied. The Creed will likely find a new home and the 270 will likely be barreled to 25-06.
Thanks for the great article Ron!
That was a great read. Along with your comparisons I loved all the comments it brought. I also have
3 rifles in 25-06, along with the other calibers in the mix. I guess I consider my guns as big boy toys
and love them all. Each gun seems to have a story, a special hunt, a special time, a perfect shot made.
I reload for each one and that makes each round an accomplishment. As one response mentioned-you
pull the trigger,it goes bang,you feel the recoil- thats the same in all. (except the 378 Weatherby-FEEL)
I would say to all, if you like what you are shooting, keep getting better with it. If you need a lighter
recoiling, flat shooting, gophers to elk rifle- the 25-06 is a great choice.
Ron-
Some observations…After reading all the previous comments there seems to be a common difference between what the compared cartridges are used for. One group are the hunters who use and rely on them and another group who enjoy slaying steel plates or targets at long distance. Sometimes the interests merge. The hunters use the .25-06 for it’s intended purposes. What really makes it perform is the quality of the newer hunting bullets. The bullets available today are so consistent, aerodynamic and durable they really bump up the .25-06 into .270 performance. It doesn’t have the highest BC, but so what. The long distance shooters need the higher BC for their targets and it seems like it’s never enough..like expensive optics on more expensive rifles. When Remington standardized the .25-06 in 1969(I was in high school) nobody was talking about a computer designed 6.5 CM. But we all read the stories of Jack O’Connor and his 7×57 or .270 every month in his articles. Your article is well founded and researched, but it’s like campfire conversations comparing what’s the best deer cartridge, truck, and whiskey. I enjoyed your video using the .25-06 and Nosler BT. We have walked the same dirt with the same load with the same outcome.
Hi Ron
Very good article and very interesting. I was wondering which catridge would make the best deer catridge between the 25-06, 6.5 cm and 7-08. With the « new » monolitic TTSX Barnes and after reading your article, the 25-06 seems to have the velocity and power to be a very very nice deer catridge. My father was an outfiter on Anticosty when I was a teenager and I loved to hunt deers with a 300 Savage, light and no recoil, I would think the 25-06 would be better. Two questions: 1) is a long action rifle better in bolt action compared with a short action? 2) can we compare the 270 win with a 25-06 and a 6.5 cm? Here in Quebec, Canada, the king of the game is Moose. Most people considers a 270 win a moose catridge and not a « medium » game catridge below 300 yards. Over 300 yards, we use magnums. I killed a moose a month ago with a 270 win and a 130 gr TTSX bullet. DRT kill! ( however the moose was only at 70 yards, he came on my calls, wonderful hunt!!! My father and uncles hunt moose with 270 win also. When a read Barnes ballistics on their website, their TTSX for the 25-06 has only 1600 ft at 200 yards and well below 1500 at 300 yards. The 270 win has 1900 ft at 200 yards and still 1600 ft power at 300 yards. Therefore, it seems that the 25-06 and 6.5 are more « deer rifles » and the 270 win more a moose rifle up to 300 yards. Can we compare the first two with the 270 win? Sorry for my english, I am French Canadien! Again Ron, thank you for your great articles! Martin
Martin, your English is a lot better than my French, oui? “Best” deer cartridge is highly debatable. All you mentioned will more than suffice. The 25-06 and 270 Win. will shoot flatter than the 6.5 CM with most bullet options. I’d choose my rifles based on the reach I wanted and not worry about energy. The right bullet in the vitals will terminate a moose. I’ve taken 54″ to 60″ bulls with bullets as light as 120-grain in 6.5mm. I wouldn’t hesitate to use a 25-06 Rem. on one. Just be sure to choose bullets designed to penetrate deeply. And park them in the right place!
Great article. I have owned a 25/06 remington 700 bdl for tha last 21 years. Ive killed over 80 deer, probably 50 hogs, javelinas, coyotes. Farthest shot was probably 350 but the vast majority at or under 200. All my kills have been 1 shot dead on the spot kills. Sight it 3” high at 100 and crosshairs will be good till 300 with no need for holdover. Im partial to 120 grain nosler partitions. To each his own. To me accuracy and shot placement are more important than downrange energy. Biggest game in my habitat (south texas) is nilgai and i wouldnt hesitate to shoot one in the neck or take a quartering away shot inside 200.
I use and have loaded for the 25/06 since 1987. I bought a Remington model 700 Classic in 25/06 with
a 24″ barrel
It consistently shot 3/4″ groups at 100yards with about any 100gr or 120gr bullets
I bought the then new Nosler reloading manual #4 and loaded my first cartridges.
100gr, Nosler Ballistic tips 54gr. of 4831sc with bullets .10 off rifling.
Many clover leaf groups and smaller groups later I thought I was the reloading king of the world( HA Ha boy was I naive!)
My chronograph averaged 5 shot groups at 3440fps. This is faster than the book and under max powder at the time ( fast gun?)
I neck sized brass and reloaded a single piece of brass 11 times.
A new primer would still seat with resistance. I only shorten this brass twice but a shiny ring
was formed 1/2″ up from the base of the cartridge. That many loading would seam to indicate pressure was OK.
The 25/06 is ALREADY a classic in the plains states if not the whole U.S.. There is not much more American than a quarter bore. In the Dakotas ammo is on every shelf that carries ammo.
That being said the 270 is a classic and as American as apple pie. The Creedmoor looks like a winner and I welcome it and all the new shooters it brings to the field.
Good look at the cartridge.
WOW. Kinda like saying my wife is prettier than yours, HUH!! I like them all. .243 is a good one too. Would like to see some data on a 6.5-06 and 6.5 x 300 WSM. Think I’ll surprise the wife with a 6.5 CM and treat myself to a 25-06. Thanks Ron for the article.
Ron, I loved this article. When I first started hunting I went through the 30-30 and 30-06 rifles. I had problems with them due to recoil. I wore contacts at the time and at the bench I would slip a contact almost each time I fired, so I wore glasses while hunting. Then I got to shoot a Rem BDL 243 I shot better didn’t slip contacts, and started clovering shots. Shooting actually became fun. Then in the earliy ninties I bought a BDL 25-06 no slipage, and clovered shots. Life is gooder. Started hunting with some guys on a lease where there were hogs and having never having any experience with hogs I ask what calibers others were shooting. They mostly shot 7MM, & 30-06, one even said you had to use a 180 grain 30-06 to kill them. There was a older fella there and I ask what he used. He simply said 223. I ask him how he could kill a hog with a 223 when others used much larger bullets. He simply said; If you shoot them in the ear they don’t go far; I had my challenge.
Over the years me and my little 25-06 have harvest many deer and hogs and even a mule deer simply because I know exactly what that gun is going to do. I shoot a couple of boxes of shells through it yearly just for fun and if I pull one I know it’s me. I picked up a 270 recently and am getting to the same level of confidence with it that I have with my 243 and 25 but my 25 will never leave my side. I am glad I read this because validates the effectiveness I have seen in my 25, and to all the nay sayers out there just Shoot- em-in-the-ear .
Excellent report Burns. So pleased you’ve enjoyed so much success with your rifles. You’ve learned what so many have not. Congrats.
Well, what happened to the 6.5-06? That would solve the lack of high BC bullet problem. I never understood why the 6.5-06 never caught on more. It is better than the Creedmoor and I’m pretty sure better even than the 6.5-284 Norma. Would love to know.
Damn Ron, you really stirred it up with this article! Never had the chance to shoot a 25-06, but I will say Shelly’s 6.5 Creedmoor is an absolute tack-driver. I’ll show you when you invite me for a deer hunt, lol.
I’ve no doubt her 6.5 CM drives tacks, but virtually any cartridge will do that with the right rifle and ammo. Its the basic ballistics that separate the good, bad, and ugly. And the degrees of separation are not much in most cases.
Your basic comparison of a 115 grain 25/06 to a 143 grain 6.5 is bias. Compare at least to the same bullet weight and see if it can hold its own then? The 6.5 with less powder and heavier bullet still holds its own even with your built in bias.
I appreciate your concern, Bruce, but there are no 143-grain options in .257 caliber and a 115-grain in .264 will not provide the high B.C. that makes the heavier .264s so effective. You’ll certainly flatten the 6.5 CM trajectory. A better option is to try to match the B.C. of both bullets and then maximize muzzle velocity in both. The larger powder capacity of the 25-06 suggests it would win. But this doesn’t mean I’m biased against the 6.5 CM. I merely publish these pieces to showcase and compare for my reader’s edification. I have one 25-06 and four 6.5 CMs and no axe to grind against either.
I’m kinda with Bruce, here. If I was shooting at an Elk at 300 yards and ….. if I have the choice of the faster .25-06 with a 115 grain bullet and a similar shaped bullet 6.5 CM with a 140 or 143 grain bullet, I believe that I would go with the bullet weight. Three weeks ago I chose the 6.5 CM over the .25-06 and the 6.5 CM because of the bullet weight choices and the recoil.
What the naysayers of your article don’t understand is that you are pointing out gun and ammo behavior, not trying to force them into a certain caliber. They can buy all sorts of caliber bullets in all types of guns. I did!
Ron,
Great article. Just found your site. I always enjoy your articles in the WOJ. I have a 25-06 and love it though I would love it more if I could get some slick high BC bullets for it. I would rebarrel to a faster twist in a sec. I’m not sure what all of this obscurity talk is all about. When I first got mine (about 6 years ago) I wasn’t hand loading yet and never had trouble finding factory ammo. I have been doing everything I can to get some higher BC .257 bullets. I have talked to the major manufacturers at trade shows, written emails, below is a link to a thread I started.
https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/high-bc-bullet-gap.168027/
I know this is a can of worms, but to me, were there a high BC 130 gr. bullet option; the 25-06 would be the best all around (varmint to deer, maybe elk) cartridge out there. Sure some will shoot flatter, some will hit harder…. but for someone who wanted one rifle to do it all, it would be hard to beat. I run the 115 Bergers at well over 3200 fps. I think you could get to 130s over 3000 fps without any trouble. In a high bc design that would be well into the .6s bc wise. To push a bullet with that bc that fast in a 6.5 you are talking about 264 win mag territory and all the additional recoil that comes with that jump.
I hope you championing this cause is more successful than my meager efforts have been. It is an uphill battle with the current 6.5 craze.
Great article. I have been shopping for a new middle weight gun and this article has definitely got me thinking and researching. Keep up the good work.
Loved the artical. My 25 is savage varmeter. SS fluted barrel 26″ with break. Loads 115 berger at 2980. Holding firm groups at 4″ at 600 yards. Have learned to hold for slight earth rotation on this and longer ranges. Hole on hole at 100.
Thanks again for the boost for the great 25 tacker.
Vern hughes
Let me tell you something junior (Ron). You are NO Jack O’Connor by any means. That means any comment you make when compared to Mr. O’Connor’s, if they contradict is a dumb one. Jack O’Connor said plainly, across the board, no cartridge out performs the 270 in the field against multiple game. No, the 25-06 does not out perform the 270. This is your opinion and your choice. I am in my mid 50’s and have been in the field all my life. One of the elderly gentlemen who taught me shot a 25-06. It is a good load and I am glad you like it. But don’t ever contradict Jack O’Connor. Your knowledge in comparison to his is like ……. a bad comparison.
My goodness, Joel. What a response to a simple article. I’m sorry if I offended your hero, but I don’t recall ever claiming to be Mr. O’Connor, whom I admired and still do. That said, I will continue to study and research guns and ammo and bullets and ballistics and report what I discover. If it happens to contradict Mr. O’Connor, Mr. Keith, Boddington, Atkins or any other authority I’ll rest my case on physics and facts. You might want to check out my next blog (scheduled to post Sunday, Dec. 10, 2017) that compares the 270 Winchester against the 6.5 Creedmoor. I’ve a hunch you might like it. By the way, If Mr. O’Connor really did say no cartridge outperforms the 270 in the field against multiple game, he was wrong. Many can and do. Still, the 270 Win. is a great round suitable for just about anything short of dangerous game. With the right bullet, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it on bears, moose, eland. In fact, a buddy and I once used the 270 WSM with 140-gr. Fail Safe bullets to terminate a pair of massive bull water buffalo in Australia. The only thing that WSM has over the 270 Win. is about 100 fps.
No offense intended, Ron, but should someone in their “mid 50’s” really be referring to you as “Junior?”
(If not, then maybe you should begin marketing your skin care regimen on this site. You have Joel fooled!)
Joel has been out standing, in his field for more than 50 years. Time to go back to the house, Joel.
I would like to share the 25-06 article
Great article, Ron! I’ve long been a fan of the .25-06 because of the ballistics. I started studying it when my Dad gave me his 700 in that caliber that he purchased in the mid-70’s. I’ve always wondered why it is not more in favor, but after having been in this business for a few decades, I’ve come to realize that it is no less fashionable or trendy than the runways of Paris. And opinions are often based on little more than current likes. I appreciate this type of article with numbers and facts.
Thanks again for all you’ve contributed to this industry over the years.
By the way, I think Mr. O’Connor would appreciate this article as well :)
The bottom line is that “6.5 Creedmoor” was chosen because none of the companies involved in “creating” that “new” cartridge cared for “.264 Winchester”, which is what Creedmoor really is. Not .264 Winchester MAGNUM of course. And its not like there aren’t a PILE of other 6-6.5mm cartridges that can be compared to it and VERY FAVORABLY IN MOST CASES. Hell, .243 Winchester comes to mind. But if we’re going “Remington vs. Winches…I mean “Creedmoor” then lets do the OBVIOUS AND MUCH CLOSER ONE and have a .260 Remington vs. 6.5 Creedchester (Winmoor just ain’t gonna “fit” the results of most comparisons involving that supposed “super cartridge”) comparison. Both short-action, within .005″ bullet diameter, WAY MORE “OVERLAP” in bullet weights and types between them, etc.
Or maybe 6.5 Creedmoor guys just prefer to let their “shooting” do their talking. I mean you can’t TELL THEY DO by how much time they spend whining and crying and “defending” a freaking CARTRIDGE LIKE ITS GOT FEELINGS EVEN MORE SENSITIVE THAN THEIRS OR SOMETHING. But I’ll give…at least a QUARTER of them the “benefit of the doubt” and “assume” they actually own guns and actually own 6.5 Creedmoors and aren’t ALL just paid shills here doing the never-ending work of propping up one of the what, couple DOZEN “new” cartridges the big “gun grab scare”….”blessed” us with?
Jo Mama, the non-belted 6.5 Creedmoor was created by modifying a 30 TC case (which was itself made by modifying a 308 Win., which is a shortened version of the 30-06, which is a lengthened version of the 7x57mm Mauser which is a necked down 8mm Mauser.) And if I’m not mistaken, there was only one company involved in its creation: Hornady. This new 6.5 cartridge does, indeed, join a long list of 6.5mm cartridges built in various countries over the years. Many of these produce nearly identical MV and trajectories, but only the Creedmoor was engineered to maximize the long range performance that extreme range target/competition shooters want, need and apparently have found in the 6.5 Creedmoor.
Nice article Ron,
I have many rifles in my tool chest. Lots of doggin rifles along with a Browning SS A-Bolt 25-06,Sako 270 WSM, and Browning SS A-Bolt 300WSM. I used to help thin the does in Southern Iowa a few years ago in their special late season doe only. That little 25-06 spoiled many doe life with one shot with the Nosler 100 gr BT. My longest shot was only 405 yds but was as effective as all the closer shots. I bought the 270 WSM early in the years that season was available to us and took even more with it (140 gr Accubonds). I won’t be getting rid of either rifle. Ballistics are nearly the same with the rifles and both topped with Zeiss scopes with rapid Z6 or Z8 reticle. The point is there is more power in the 270 than the 25-06, but they were obviously to me both extremely effective rounds. The 25-06 a little milder was used by some friends down there too. They fell in love with it. Both guns hand loaded shoot less than .25” groups. Turns out Wonderful! A large sporting goods store came out this summer to use my range and I shot the 6.5 Creedmoor. It was awesome! Gongs rang at 600yds just fine. Nothing that my 25-06 or 270WSM couldn’t do. I fell in love with it but not giving up my 25 or adding another yet. Bottom line the fun is buying these tools and learning how to perfect their accuracy as best I can with a bullet to the task and then enjoy them. None of the deer told me the 25-06 was inadequate.
I have taken two 6×6 bull elk with my rem model 700 25-06. Both under 90 yards. One with sieara game king 117s grain and one with Berger 115 grains. Neither went down on the first shot and both took 2 more rounds before it was over. All were kill zone shots. In hind site recovery for each bull could have much more difficult had the animal managed a couple hundred more yards. It will do the job on an elk. But don’t expect them to just tip over.
Mark, I don’t expect them to just tip over no matter what I hit them with. I’ve put three 180-grain AccuBonds into the kill zone from 40 yards before the bull gave up the ghost. Ditto three 160s from a 7mm Rem. Mag. A solid hit in the chest from a 150-grain TSX carrying nearly 3,000 f-p energy upon impact (280 Ackley Improved) and the bull just turned and walked away — until blood pressure dropped and so did he. Four solid chest hits from a 300 magnum before another 6×6 bull finally showed any sign of having been hit from no more than 150 yards out. Then again, a single 140-grain Partition from a 284 Win. and kerplunk. Down right there. But that was a high shoulder/spine hit. Heart/lung hit game doesn’t always or even most often drop right there because the brain is still functioning. It continues until blood pressure drops. Often takes a few seconds to several, during which the animal can run, walk, stand, continue browsing or even courting a receptive cow. They don’t know they’ve been shot. With elk, keep shooting until down.
Who-wee! SO entertained with some of the responses. Don’t know who’s more passionate, football fans (not me) or firearm freaks (ME).
Great article regardless of which side of the fence you’re on. In this instance it seemed to me that about 50% of the contributors were wrapped up in a barb-wired fence! Personally I prefer leaning on a split rail fence, in the shade, with a “cool one”, watching “that” guy all snarled up in barb-wire. (Who needs the comedy channel on Netflix?)
But I digress, on to my ¢.02…, Last night a Bohunk pal of mine (at our local watering hole) showed me his NIB Savage bull barreled; Bushnell equipped (shoosh, I’ve got a dozen swapped out scopes in a drawer) Creedmoor, fresh from Wally World, after rebate only $300. One left in stock at store, sale ends 31 Dec. I WAS HOOKED, having been following the Creed for a few yrs, with the interest never quite dying out.
A little later another “hunting” pal of mine (pick up on the difference there vs. “shooting”?) put a bug in my ear about how so many were rushing out to get one. Apparently I had enough cognitive ability left in me when I departed to take a breath this morning before running 20 miles (yes I live in the boonies) to get my hands on the LAST one. And I found this discussion, read the article and EVERY comment. The old addage “sleep on it” carries SO much wisdom.
Having in my collection…, M96 6.5×55 Swede (original), Browning Medallion A-Bolt 25-06, and a custom .25-.284 wildcat ( Monte Carlo fiddle-back stock, birds-eye Maple fore end / grip cap, heavy taper bbl, anchored to a Remington 722 action. Unh-huh, she’s a thing of beauty…, that pokes sub 1/2″ clovers. So proud.)
So long story short, I realized I’ve ALREADY got what I thought I needed for what I do, and I’ll put dollars to doughnuts that many of you do too ( thank you to the guys that gave info on high BC .257 bullets). But as addicted “bang-stick-ophiles” do we REALLY need an excuse to obtain ONE more toy? Thanks for indulging me guys……, being a cheap-scate do I get any change back from that ¢.02? Peace Out!
I envy your accuracy returns and appreciate your humor, David. But I hope my articles aren’t dissuading you or any other readers from buying more guns and ammo. That’s not the idea. You’re supposed to buy and test everything to prove me wrong and keep the industry humming.
I’ve been packing a 25/06 for over 35 years. Being a south paw , I could not buy one off the shelf. I bought a 700 Remington lh, & had gunsmith put a Hart match grade stainless 26” barrel on it.
Over the years I have shot nearly big game animal in Canada with it. Over 25 bull elk, 2 bull moose, big horn rams, grizzly bears, black bears,caribou & too many deer to count. After the big game season is over, I switch from the 115 grain partition bullets to the light weight 75 grain hollow points & shoot coyotes & wolves all winter.
I chose the 25/06 build because I don’t enjoy recoil from larger calibers. Bullet choice for hunting is extremely important & is bullet placement.
Bang for the buck- best caliber out there. Does it have limitations— of course ,they all do! PS. He that waits for a perfect horse must walk.
Love it, Les. Thanks for contributing.
Great “perfect horse” quote, Les. Ain’t it the truth!
Enjoyed your article Ron. I have been shooting a 2506 for over 30 years and love the caliber. I presently shoot a Browning x Bolt 2506 with a Leupold 4.5 -14 scope with cds and love it. Have taken several deer, both mule deer and whitetail, at around 400 yds and too many to count in closer. Just dial in the distance and shoot. Also have used it with great success on 2 Bull elk and several cow elk. I use 115 gr Nosler partitions and they have never failed me. I have a 7 Mag for heavy game and it is a great shooting rifle, but it doesn’t come off the wall very often. Just as a side note, my first hunting rifle was one of the mildest recoiling rifles I have ever used. It was a Savage 99 in 303 Savage. It has been retired for a lot of years.
Montey, thanks for sharing your successes with the 25-06!
25-06 owner for 30yrs. here is my take on the caliber for what it is worth, first off i would like to say i have used it on everything from crows to mule deer, i would not even want to try to figure out the number of white tailed deer i have shot with the gun, mule deer 2, antelope 2,coyotes a bunch, fox some, and some other things i will not mention. (the 25-06 is a wantabe) it wants to be a varmint rifle, too big, too much recoil and don’t even bother to try to sell the pelts. it wants to be a deer gun, too small, it does kill!! but don’t give up on the blood trail on boiler room shots. i have shot everything from factory loads to reloads 75 grain up to 120 grain, you may ask why i keep the gun, well, it shoots very good, i trust it, have faith in my shots, i have learned putting the cross hair 2ft. over the back of a white tale and you better go look for the blood trail..don’t know the sure yardage, put cross hair just daylight over the back, 18in. to play with, if he don’t move add a foot to it after each shot just don’t forget to look for blood
Great article! Exactly the information I was looking for. Thanks.
After reading everything written here, I think I’ll go buy a .308. It has to be the best of all worlds! I can get to over .7 on BC with current production bullets, it has a barrel life better than any of the discussed cartridges, it has mild recoil…especially if I add a muzzle brake, and it is proven on elk and in 1000yd competitions. And it’s a classic. Brass and ammo are ubiquitous. It comes in a Browning X-Bolt with 26″ barrel weighing under 7 lbs. Thanks for solving the “best cartridge” issue for me, gents! Happy shooting!
Ray, good luck and enjoy your new rifle!
Great article Ron! I’ve shot over 40,000 rounds of 25-06, starting with the Neidner Improved version in the ’60s. This is one of my favorite cartridges of all time. The improved version produces speed to match the .257 Wby with better accuracy and is dirt cheap to shoot.
You hit the nail ON THE HEAD. The 25-06 needs a 7 or 8 twist to allow it to share in the use of very low drag bullets. I have no doubt Hornady will jump on it when such a rifle is produced. Sign me up to experiment with lots of 130g and 140g class bullets on 600-1000 yard targets and varmints. Most bullet makers want them but all are waiting for rifle manufacturers to correct a decades-old twist rate problem in 25 caliber. I shoot the 115g Bergers at 3225 fps and they are amazing for 1000 yard p-dogs. You have never seen an antelope drop faster than when hit with a 100g Sierra Game King at 500 yards. Over 95% of my shots have used 75g varmint bullets shooting in the .0 to .1 MOA accuracy range with custom barrels.
I also shoot the Creedmoors and make long range precision rifles using them with high satisfaction. You will find a more direct comparison for the 25-06 REM in the 6mm Creedmoor. With its higher velocity using a 105g to 115g VLD bullet in an 8 twist barrel, it tracks right with the 25-06. I SO want a 25-06 Improved with 130g-140g VLD bullet. I’d gladly buy a custom 7 twist barrel because I expect it to be the most accurate of all these at 1000 yards. Those who think they need a short/fat cartridge haven’t shot the 25-06 Improved from the bench in the .0 and .1 MOA range. It’s an amazing cartridge, with low recoil, high impact and amazing accuracy, especially in the AI form.
Thanks Mike. Let’s hope the manufacturers are listening. I see no reason for any to stick with the old 25-06 twists.
This put me on a search of current production twist rates for .25-06 rifles… almost all of them that I saw were 10″, with just a couple of 9″ twists sprinkled in (i.e. Barrett Fieldcraft, Remington 700 Sendero). Oh, and a Howa Hogue with a whopping 12″ twist. Interesting.
Ron,
Great article. Contrary to some of the responses I’ve seen here I think the world is full of good “deer” cartridges. I have killed both mule and whitetails with the following cartridges: .243 Win, 6.5x55mm Swede, .270 Win, .308 Win, and 8x57mm. Only one moved more than 10yds after the shot (out of about 50 total). Distances ranged from 30′ to about 350yds. Based on my past history, it did not matter what cartridge I shot them with as long as I took care to place a good bullet in the right place.
Most of these comments seem more suited to good natured ribbing around a campfire or reloading bench, except that some of the folks aren’t so good natured. How about this – I’ll shoot what works for me and you shoot what works for you.
Tom, what are you trying to do, be reasonable? We need debate here. Strong opinions. Wrestling. Fisticuffs. Rolling in the dust and fire. Seriously, you are absolutely correct. But some folks do get carried away. I take such excessive enthusiasm with a grain of salt. It’s easy to get overwrought and let off steam via the internet. Doesn’t mean discourtesy would happen in person. Regardless, we invite all opinions, strong or weak, and we’ll print them so long as there is no foul language or degrading content. By the way, you are a complete bozo, fool, and unrepentant idiot for shooting an 8x57mm at anything. What’s the matter with you! ;-)
I wonder if anyone has ever explored a 25-08? I would assume when they were playing with the 25WSM and WSSMs they’d have explored that but ? I think folks should pick a caliber/cartridge, acquire a quality medium to long range scope, then learn their system/platform. Shot placement always trumps caliber etc. jmho
Yes, many 25-08 wildcats have been made. The 250 Humdinger is an example that started with a 243 Win. case. Necked up to .257, minimum body taper, sharper shoulder. Drives 120-gr. bullets 3,000 fps. More commonly the 284 Win. case has been necked down to make the 25-284. So many of these wildcats are so close to one another in performance that there is no appreciable ballistic advantage. Just fun making/shooting something different. Richard Mann’s “Two-Fity Hillbilly” (6.5 Creedmoor necked down to .257) is the most recent .25 wildcat.
I don’t compete but have used 25-06 since Remington released it in the Model 700 and have shot thousands of Sierra #1610 bullets without ‘burning out” the barrel.
From groundhogs to deer it is a sweetshooting rifle and doesn’t wear on you to carry or during long shooting sessions.
For economy I have a ‘3-gun’ stable of 25-06, 280 rem, and .35 Wheelen all in Model 700s and all using the 30-06 parent case. The .280 is longer so I buy them but any of them can be formed from the ’06. This group has taken everything from groundhogs to Kudu
Ron, as I am sure you are aware, here in Europe there are a number of rifles with easy barrel/caliber change systems. In looking at quarter-bore options, I have found one – the Blaser R8 – offering the .257 Weatherby Magnum, and another – the Sauer 202 – offering the .25-06 Remington.
In your estimable opinion, which of these calibers would make the best option for hunting deer and chamois, maybe goat, in mainly alpine regions? I just saw my first chamois this week up in the Swiss Berner Oberland, by the way. It was a snowshoeing trip, so no hunting, but it was still exciting to see a new species that I had only ever seen pictures of before.
Cugeno: Both the 257 Wby. and 25-06 Rem. would be deadly for deer, chamois, and any goat species I’ve ever seen. You’ll get slightly longer Maximum Point Blank Range from the 257 Wby due to roughly 200 fps more MV. Concomitant recoil increase. The 25-06 Rem. should make for a slightly trimmer, lighter rifle due to is smaller head diameter, but that depends on the rifle design. I used the excellent Merkel K3 single shot in 257 Wby. and it was extremely trim, light and fast. Dakota Model 10 in falling block single shot 25–06 is another delightfully light, trim, deadly accurate rifle. I wouldn’t hesitate to use either on elk, kudu, or even moose with the right bullets.
Much obliged, sir.
Wouldn’t using a 120 grain bullet in the 6.5 creedmoor even the trajectory difference? Nosler reloading manual #8 shows a 120 grain ballistic tip in 6.5 creedmoor at about 3000fps with a BC of .458. In the 25-06 a 115 grain ballistic tip is at about 3150fps with a BC of .453
The 120 grain 6.5 has a (very) slightly better BC and is only flying 150fps slower with a fair bit less powder.
Yes, Mike, a lighter bullet at higher MV would flatten the trajectory of the 6.5 CM, bringing it closer to that of the 25-06 load you mentioned. Regardless the cartridges we shoot, so long as B.C. and M.V. match, ballistic drops are the same and so is the wind deflection. The heavier bullet will always carry more energy. However, while you’re decreasing your 6.5 bullet mass to increase speed, I could be decreasing the .257 bullet mass to increase it’s speed, too, resulting in even flatter trajectory. Kind of a reverse arms race. But you are wise to consider these options and study ballistic tables to learn what your advantages and trade offs are.
Very true, thanks Ron. You sure got a response out of this one, 171 comments! While I’m at it out of 25-06, 6.5 creedmoor, 6.5×55 and 7mm-08 which would you pick for general purpose deer hunting and target practice? I have a 30-06 for the bigger stuff but want a smaller cartridge for less recoil, more shooting and sufficient for deer hunting. I know there’s a million variables but what would you lean towards and why?
I’d go 6.5 CM for targets, 7mm-08 for do-everything big game hunting, and 25-06 for open country, deer-sized hunting, esp. pronghorn, mule deer, sheep, goat. And wouldn’t hesitate to use on caribou.
And if one could only afford a rifle in one of those?
Your pick, Mike. Depends on what you want to do with it. For hunting I’d go 25-06. For lots of target shooting, 6.5 Creedmoor.
Thanks for your reply Ron. Glad I can pick the brain of someone who’s shot all these different cartridges! I’ve read some of your other articles and I think I’m getting the picture here.
Targets shooters don’t care much about drop because a known trajectory is easily compensated for on the range. They would prefer a higher BC bullet because wind drift is less easily read and compensated for at long range. Thus the 6.5 Creedmoor is about perfect for target shooting, fast twist barrels, very high BC bullets, modest velocity = modest recoil, drop is easily compensated for. Throw in the 6mm Creedmoor here too I guess for the same factors.
Hunters would generally prefer a flatter trajectory because when a game animal pops out and you have seconds for a shot there may be no time for a range finder, dialing a scope, getting the scope to the correct power for your drop reticle etc. If you have a flat shooting cartridge out to say 300 yards, i.e. longest MPBR available, it reduces the chances of missing due to an incorrect estimate of range.
Am I on the right track here?
I guess what I’m looking for are 2 rifles/cartridges. One for targets, one for hunting. Ah, choices choices. What to go for first…
Mike, you are spot on in your analysis. Perfect. Now you get the agony of choosing. The good news is you can’t go wrong with at least a dozen poplar options. If you’re not a handloader, you might want to check out factory ammo options before you jump. Then determine how much rifle weight bothers you. Traditionally rifles are supposed to weight 8 pounds to be “field accurate,” but experience has shown me that 6-pound and even lighter score better in my hands. These days few of us stand on our hind legs and fling led. With a pack, bipod, tripod or other rest aid, super light rifles shoot darn well. I’ve never regretted carrying one for shots out to 450 yards. I’ve rarely shot farther than that on game. Enjoy!
Good point thanks Ron.
I know there are a million variables and that ultimately cartridge choice is not the most important, but for general deer hunting and target practice of 25-06, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5×55 and 7mm-08 which would you choose? I already have a 30-06 for the bigger stuff but I want something with less recoil for target practice and smaller game.
as long as the other rifles in my safes get along with it any rifle is welcome into the gun safe from my 10 or is 12 .22 rim fires I really do like a good shooting .22 to my .17 or from my .243’s or m y 30-06 or .300 win mag 45-70 or any of my other choices If they shoot well they stay if they don’t shoot well we keep trying new ammo loadings till they do shoot really well. Just bought a 6.5 creedmoor and I am not sure will it will fall into the mix yet I haven’t fired it yet. And being in NY I am doubtful that I will ever come across a place to put it through it’s paces. I’d hope to get the opertunity I had as a teen upstate NY shooting hundreds of chucks a summer out to about 800 yards with a 308 win. But a guy can dream. As long as it goes boom and sends lead down range very quickly and accurately I know I’ll have fun with it and it will feel right at home with all it’s new friends. Hey lets face it after more than 50 guns of various calipers I am addicted . I’m a gun slut and will shoot anything that comes along. The guys who only have one gun to compare to are more easily convinced that there’s is the only way to go . And have more time to work up a perfect load and burn out more barrels.So keep shooting long and hitting your target the best you can and leave the guy or gay on the next bench alone!
hi Ron,
Great article and you have encouraged me to research the options for getting a rifle in this calibre.
I note Tikka, Browning, Remington, Howa, Sabatti, Steyr, Barrett, Weatherby, Sako have rifles in this calibre, but there are few online reviews.
Short of getting a custom made gun, i note your points that most of the rifles don’t come with 24″ barrels and a 1-9 twist rate.
Can you or anyone recommend a good new off the shelf gun in this calibre, as few seem to come with the optimal barrel length and twists, but as some have noted how much of a difference will the deer notice if it is shot at 300m with 24″ barrel with 1-9 twist compared to a 22″ barrel with 1-10 twist?
Geoff, I haven’t researched who might be building 25-06 with 1-9 twist. You’ll have to dig. As for barrel length, you’ll give up about 25 fps for each lost inch. No big deal, really and, as you noted, the deer aren’t going to notice.
I saw recently that the Barrett Fieldcraft rifle in .25-06 Rem. is being offered in a 1-9 twist and a 24″ barrel, Geoff. Not sure if that particular firearm floats your boat, but the numbers do match up…
Happy hunting! (Both for the rifle, and thereafter…)
Ron, your comparing a larger case capacity for powder, I personally have bot a .250 Savage boilt on a Winchester. 308 action Douglas Air gage barrel, shooting a Nosler BT at 3000 fps through my chronograph and a .257 Roberts in Ruger Ultralight shooting the same Nosler bullet at 3250, this must be a better comparison, but I also have a 6.5 Creedmore in a Kimber Mountain Accend shooting a Berger 130 OTM at 3000 fps, so what do you think? Been hand loading hot rods for 39 years, I’m very cautious and careful
Best,
POP’S
Hi Pops! You didn’t provide the B.C of the bullets you’re shooting. That is the most critical number. B.C. and MV determine drop and drift. Bullet mass determines retained energy. That said, I do know there are no .257 bullets with B.C. as high as what your Creedmoor can throw. So, if MVs are close, the Creedmoor would win downrange. You need quite a bit more MV to overcome the B.C. advantage, which is what the additional powder in the 25-06 Rem gives you. That said, if you’re keeping shots inside 300 yards, there isn’t enough difference to matter. Keep shooting what you like. Both your .257 rifles are sweet performers, just not at 500 yards and beyond.
Hi Ron-
Follow up to an earlier message. It took a few years…I finally talked my South Africa P.H. into a .25-06. He sent a message yesterday. He used it for the first time two days ago. First shot on a Blesbuck at 200 yards. Flattened it. Second shot on a Springbuck at 524 yards. Flattened it. Third shot at another Springbuck at 565 yards. Flattened it. He said it is now his favorite rifle among the several he always uses. His handload was the Barnes 100 gr. TTSX at 3280fps all flying into the same hole at 100 yards. His business partner has used a .257 WBY for awhile with great results too. Their staff ate well.
Always good to hear 25-06 success reports.
Hello Ron
Great read. I have been a 25-06 fan for many years. I have 2 of them and have shot ground squirrels,
coyotes, white tail , mule deer , and even one late season cow elk while on a mule deer hunt. I would rather have a freezer full of cow elk than a stinky mule buck :) I also own a Ruger RPR in 6.5CM with
a Steiner scope that cost more than my first car. My wife and I shoot steel from 800 to 1600 yards and
have never considered shooting the 25’s at those ranges. On the other hand I wouldn’t hunt with our
RPR’s either.
Jack O’Conner (the high priest of gun writers) said it long ago . . . the average hunter has no business using a scope over 4X . . . because the average hunter shouldn’t be taking 300 yd shots. Of course, optics have changed, but not “average huntes.” I suspect ol’ Jack would still say the same thing today, and notwithstanding 6.5 CM, 25-06, .260 etc., he would still be using and praising the .270. I think the 6.5Cm with its lower recoil takes the place of 25-06, .257, .260 and .308. However, because of my advanced age and arthritis I’m perfectly happy with my flat shooting .243 because my deer hunting is done under 250 yards.
Gary, I think you’re probably correct, but… more shooters these days are dedicating themselves to training, practice, and a deeper understanding of ballistics and trajectories. The rage for shooting extreme range has made 300-yard hunting shots routine for some of these folks. Still, the average hunter who doesn’t indulge in hundreds of rounds of practice each year is flumoxed by 300 yards.
At 55 yrs old I can hardly see my feet lol’ but with a scope at 100 yrds I’ll put my buddies to shame 25-06 Ruger.