The popular new kid in the rifle world is the 6mm Creedmoor. It’s winning all kinds of target competitions. It’s also dropping pronghorns, whitetails, mule deer, coyotes, and even elk — and I’m not buying one.
Before I tell you why, let’s examine this magical new cartridge in detail and you can decide if you can afford to ignore it, too.
6mm Creedmoor Genesis
As its name suggests, the 6mm Creedmoor sprang from the 6.5 Creedmoor and the devious mind of my friend John Snow, gun columnist at Outdoor Life magazine. Back in 2009 John asked the engineers at Hornady if they’d neck their 6.5 Creedmoor down to make his 6mm version, and they did. The round began winning a high-speed shooting game known as Precision Rifle Series competition. Targets are engaged clear out to 1,300 yards, and the faster you hit them, the higher your score. Seeing hits and misses is important in this game, so a cartridge that will shoot fairly flat, resist wind deflection and minimize recoil is critical. The 6mm Creedmoor does that by handling extremely long, high B.C. bullet in AR-10 rifles.
Now let’s get back to the cartridge itself. As noted, the 6mm Creedmoor was hatched from the 6.5 Creedmoor, and that round is the ballistic twin and nearly identical physical twin to the 260 Remington. It’s essentially the 260 Rem. case with the shoulder pushed back a bit to lengthen the neck. The shoulder is sharpened from 200 to 300 as in the 30 TC cartridge. The result is internal volume about 5% less than the 260 Rem, but less bullet intrusion into that powder space. Both cases drive 140-grain bullets within 50 fps to 100 fps of each other.
6mm Creedmoor in Good Company
Similarly, the 6mm Creedmoor compares to the 243 Winchester. As most of us know, Winchester unleashed its 243 Win. in 1955, the same year Disneyland opened, gas cost 23 cents per gallon and we launched the world’s first nuclear submarine. The 243 Win. was and still is the 308 Winchester (detailed in this article) necked down to 24-caliber, just as the 260 Rem. is the 308 Win. case necked down to 26-caliber, albeit with a slightly longer body to prevent accidental chambering in 243 Win. rifles.
As you can figure out, all these similarities suggest the new 6mm Creedmoor should perform about like the 243 Winchester. It does. Both cartridges throw 100-grain to 108-grain bullets about 2,950-fps to 3,000 fps MV from 24” to 26” barrels. So will the old 6mm Remington (circa 1955.) If you want to go faster than that, grab the 240 Weatherby Magnum or 243 WSSM for another 100 fps. If you want to go slightly slower, there’s the 6x47mm Lapua and even the 6mm Bench Rest Remington.
Why the 6mm Creedmoor?
Why all these 243-caliber (6mm) cartridges? Fine tuning. Truly. Any and all will suffice for taking game. It’s when you start tweaking performance in order to get a leg up on your competition that you justify these cartridges. And that’s why I’m probably not getting a 6mm Creedmoor. I’m not a competition shooter. I’ve already got a 243 Win. and a 6mm Rem. I use both for hunting and just a bit of fun target shooting. Both routinely group MOA, often half that with certain bullets and loads. Both match the ballistic performance of the 6mm Creedmoor. So the Creedmoor — balanced, accurate and mild shooting though it may be — offers me nothing I don’t already have.
This doesn’t mean it’s not perfect for YOU. It might not be radically different from our older 6mms, but it’s not the zombie shooter craze or today’s hula hoop either (that’s a 1950s reference, kids.)
If you’re in the market for a 6mm, you should seriously consider the 6mm Creedmoor. If you want to indulge in extreme range shooting and contests like PRS, especially with an AR-10 platform rifle, 6mm Creedmoor is probably perfect. If your need is for an accurate, flat shooting, mild-recoiling hunting rifle, a 243 Win. might be the smarter option because there are many, many more rifles and factory loads available for it. If you handload, either round will work just fine. As of this writing, only Ruger is producing factory rifles in 6mm Creedmoor, but that will surely change soon.
One More 6mm Creedmoor Consideration
Finally, here is one more consideration: rifling twist rate. This is critical if you appreciate long range potential and precision. As explained in this twist rate article, today’s most efficient, high B.C., long-range projectiles require faster twist rates than are traditional. Remington famously missed the boat with a too-slow twist rate (1:12) with its original 244 Remington cartridge in 1955. Forced to increase twist to compete with the 243 Win. (which you can read about here,) Remington reintroduced the 244 Rem. with a 1:9 twist barrel and renamed it the 6mm Remington as it’s known today. Unfortunately, too little too late, and this round is nearly obsolete. The 6mm Creedmoor may be the final nail in its coffin.
Most 243 Win. and 240 Wby. Mag. rifles come with 1:10 twists, which are not quite quick enough to stabilize today’s longest, highest B.C. bullets. Hornady recommends 1:9 twist or faster for its 105-grain A-Max and BTHP Match. Hornady’s new 108 ELD-Match needs a twist of 1:8. Hornady rates this projectile with a G1 B.C. of .536. Compare that to traditional 100-grain .243 bullets that top out with B.C. of around .405 and you’ll understand why the faster twist is needed. Other high B.C. bullets a 6mm shooter might consider are:
Berger 115-grain VLD Hunting (B.C. .568, 1:7 twist)
Sierra 107-grain MatchKing (B.C. .547, 1:8 twist)
Sierra 110-grain MatchKing (B.C. .617, 1:7 twist)
Nosler 107-grain Custom Competition (B.C. .525, 1:8 twist)
David Tubb DTAC 115-grain Closed Nose (B.C. .590, .620, 1:7 twist)
The writing is on the target board, folks. Shooters and the industry have finally tumbled to the inherent benefits of ballistic efficiency. Long range shooting and the need for aerodynamic efficiency are what’s driving innovation in new bullets and cartridges like the 6mm Creedmoor.
Conclusion
If you want a 6mm rifle of any kind primarily for hunting at reasonable ranges, a traditional 243 Win., 6mm Rem. or 240 Wby. Mag. will serve you perfectly. But, if you want to work with today’s most efficient bullets to minimize drop and drift while maximizing retained energy for downrange performance, you might want the new 6mm Creedmoor. It could well become the most popular 6mm cartridge of the future.
Ron Spomer doesn’t remember the year the 243 Winchester was introduced, but he was toddling around then. He doesn’t recall the introduction of the 6mm Creedmoor, either, because he was too busy shooting his 243 Winchester.
Very interesting and timely article. Just the other day on the range, a good friend was discussing the 244 Remington and how the 243 essentially killed it. It came up since I recently decided to run a 243 as my 6mm selection since I primarily shoot 600 yards and in.
I hadn’t ever heard of 244 until that conversion.
A 244 Remington was a 6mm with a 1 in 12 twist, I had one. It would only shoot up to 90 grain bullets.
More precisely, the factory rifle you had, had 1:12 twist. You can get a barrel with any twist, in any caliber, for any bullet weight you want.
I disagree with part of the conclusion…many states require a minimum of 24 caliber to hunt big game and a 6mm bullet is not .24 inches. It is in fact .23622 inches. So the 6mm is too small and could get you into some trouble. I doubt that this will have any real effect on taking a deer or other medium sized game when compared to the .243 but rules are rules and a 6mm could get you into some trouble with Fish and Game. Also if you invest in the 6mm I would plan on spending appx 20% more on ammunition over the life of the gun when compared to the much more prevalent (and less expensive) .243 ammunition… Similar to the 9mm vs 380 conversation in concealed carry guns, 9mm is much less expensive ammunition.
Rex, you’re highlighting the common problem of “vague numbers” in cartridge nomenclature. The 6mm “caliber” is approximate. The 6mm Remington, 6mm Creedmoor use the same .243″ bullets as the 243 Winchester and 240 Wby Mag. The 7mm Rem. Mag. converts to .275″, but it shoots the same .284″ bullets as the 7mm-08 Rem., 284 Win., 280 Rem., etc. The 38 Special fires a .357″ bullet. The 44 Rem. Mag. shoots a .430″.
Ron
Thanks for clearing up the “caliber conundrum.” I have lived all over this great country (which I served in 4 decades) and Im hunting in states I dont live in (the Peoples Republic of Maryland). Ive seen prohibitions on .223/.224 or “any .22 caliber wheapon for hunting large game, I dont think any tag Ive ever held had a “medium game” category, perhaps coyotes and pronghorn might fit in there, with bigfoot as “super large game? Ive never seen a prohibition on the golden old .243 Winchester or the .244 Remington in whatever nomenclature. If Mr. Rex Richardson could cite one I would really appreciate it.
Mr. Spomer, with so many large .223/.224 bullets coming on the scene in 90grns and bigger I think, what are the prospects in your opinion for taking deer and pronghorn with a 22-250 or even a AR15 in .556 with handloaded close to maximum for the AR15 platform with 90grn offerings from Hornady, Nosler, Berger, and of course Sierra?
Rex, sir the floor is yours, and thanks for your time and effort researching your response.
Many hunters in SD, Montana, ID and similar states with legal .22 centerfire cartridges have been cleanly taking pronghorns, mule deer, whitetails, and even elk for decades. The 223 Rem. is used on caribou and moose in AK regularly. It’s more about where the bullet is parked than its diameter, velocity or even weight. I’m not saying .22s or even .24s are ideal, but neither are arrows. And they all work.
Pennsylvania requires .27 or larger to hunt elk.
I took a nice, mature blacktail buck with my AR15 using 64gr lead tipped bullets. Shot placement is crucial, and range is a factor. I shot from about 30yds and it dropped within 20 yards.
So can I use Remington .243 in my Ruger Precision 6mm Creedmoor? Is there a any ammunition that is interchangeable with the 6mm Creedmoor?
Afraid not, Marc. Most cartridges are designed to specifically fit and function properly in one chamber size that matches it. There are a few exceptions like 22 Short fitting and firing safely in a 22 Long Rifle (but not vice versa) and a 38 Special fitting and firing safely in a 357 Magnum (but not vice versa.) You can also get some WRONG cartridges to fit and fire in some horribly wrong chambers such as a 7mm-08 Rem. in a 25-06 Rem. or a 270 Win. in a 30-06. Such mixups can result in severe damage to the rifle and sometimes the shooter. You will not cram a 243 Winchester in a 6mm Creedmoor chamber. (The Remington you mention is just the company that loaded the ammo — the cartridge is officially known as the 243 Winchester.) To be safe, make sure the headstamp on the back of your cartridges matches that on the side of your rifle barrel.
I own a Remington M700 BDL in 6MM Remington for now on over 30yrs. I reload and that drives down any cost difference over any 243’s. This rifle is like an extension of my right arm as it is so accurate that as long as I do my part in shooting “her” she hits what I aim at. I have taken so many deer, coyotes or pigs with “her” I have lost count. I use either 95gr BT Hornady or 100gr Nosler Partition.
Bobby: Beware the man with one gun… I, too, like the 6mm Rems performance. It throws the same bullets as the 243 Win., but about 100 fps faster. I have one, too, though not as well used as yours.
Beware of the man who can shoot ANY gun.
Really?? You are spouting numbers, but have no idea what you are talking about. It is common knowledge that the 243 win, and the 244 rem (6mm rem) shoot the same size bullets. If you are going to post something, make sure you get your facts straight. .23622 (really)?
A 243 bullet is exactly 243 thousands
The government considers the 243 and 6mm as being 24 calibers for hunting purposes.
Yes. That’s because they both shoot .243″ diameter bullets. Ditto the 240 Wby. Mag., 243 WSSM, 6mm Creedmoor, 6mm ARC and any other cartridge that shoots .243″ bullets.
All the .243 win needs is a faster twist barrel with a proper chamber cut and it is basically the same as the Creedmoor.
Yes, sir, and a 26 or 28 inch tube and you got a speed demon. If you really want to pop up the volume build a .243 Ackley Improved.
I love that 243 Ackley! But you’ve gotta get the fast twist barrel.
If you really want a speed demon, step up to the 6mm Ackley Improved.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek042.html
Mike, I do like the Ackleys for lots of reasons, but you might want to qualify your definition of “Speed Demon.” Reforming a 6mm Rem. to Ackley shape should add about 9% powder capacity, which is useful, but not huge. I’ve heard of guys getting 3,200 to 3,300 fps with 95-grain bullets from 6mm AIs, but that was probably with 26″ barrels or longer. Nothing wrong with that, but needed information for keeping things in perspective. By comparison, the 240 Wby Mag. matches that and Kenny Jarrett’s 243 Catbird (from a necked down 270 Win., 35-degree shoulder) gets 3,500 fps. Of course, with lighter bullets you’ll get way more speed with all of these. The Catbird hits 4,100 fps with a 70-grain bullet. I’d say that fits my definition of speed demon. Cheers and happy shooting.
Amen!
The .243 A.I. is better than the 6mm Creedmore in all respects for “heavy-in-class” bullets which carry the highest B.C.’s. Why? Case capacity and design.
Both the 6mm Creedmore AND the 6.5 Creedmore are dogs because of case capacity when it comes to long range shooting. There are numerous cartridges in the same caliber that perform better in all bullet weights and at all distances which have been around for decades.
Never underestimate the power of marketing to manipulate the casual enthuist.
People, please read your ballistics manuals.
Why do so many people blow primer pockets well before they split case necks in the Creedmore cartridges? The answer is simple. They are trying to get out of the Creedmore cartridges what they were never designed to do. Yet, around the cafe table, they’re not yet willing to admit that they got sucked in by the hype.
If you want low recoil in a short action then fine. But dont get stupid with comparisons to other superior cartridges.
Ive killed lots of big deer with my 6.5 mm Creedmoor, and a 200 pound black bear at 545 yards! Its not “hyperbole” or “commercialization” to me, its meet in my deep freezer.
learn to spell ‘creedmoor’
LOL, you can’t even spell Creedmoor, and expect people to respect your ignorant opinion? The 6mm is a “dog when it comes to long-range shooting”? That’s interesting, because it’s one of the top winning cartridges in the Precision Rifle Series. Most of the other top cartridges are even lower velocity than the 6 Creed. https://precisionrifleblog.com/category/rifles/cartridges/ The comes a point when additional velocity is not worth the extra barrel wear, and is often less accurate than a slightly slower cartridge. If we are only talking about long range hunting, you aren’t going to be shooting antelope at 1300 yards (like we do with steel at a PRS match), and the 3100 fps from the 6 Creed is plenty for dropping antelope or whitetail at reasonable distances. If I could only own one centerfire rifle, it wouldn’t be the 6 Creed. But since we can own as many as we like, it’s a great one to have in the gun room. It’s certainly not “stupid” to compare it to similar calibers.
Good job correcting that gentleman sir, with sources to back up your comment as well. Looks like you made him out to be a true idiot!
A barrel will burn out much quicker with a 243 the 6mm. Guys shooting PRS shoot. Lot of ammo, hence another reason to go to 6mm and 6.5s. I got a Desert Tech in 6.5 Creedmoor and haven’t touched any of my 308s since…
Baer45: I’m a bit confused by your comments. A 243 and a 6mm are both the same caliber, .243″. Are you meaning a specific cartridge? Please clarify.
I’m sure he’s referring to specific cartridges. The .243 Win and the 6mm Rem (used to be the .244 Rem before Rem retwisted the bore to 1:10 in 1963).
Al Chioffe, I’m not so sure about that. He might be referring to the 6mm Creedmoor, which the article was about. Regardless, the 243 Win shouldn’t erode barrels appreciably faster than either the 6mm Rem. or 6 Creedmoor. None are exactly overbored, although the more gently sloped shoulder of the 243 Win (20-degree) vs. the 30-degree of the Creedmoor MIGHT contribute to more eroding with sharp-edged stick powders. Thanks for your insights.
Thanks Ron, I have three 243 winchester and a 6mm remington. They all have there place in my gun safe. My family and I use them for just about everything. I reload everything I have so I reload both to the same velocity. It makes it easy for me. From a 55 grain bullet at 3800 FPS to a 95 grain at around 3000 FPS. Works for coyotes and deer. Don’t really need anything else.
Glad those little rifles are working well for you, Leslie. I’ve always found them deadly on deer. A bit much if you’re saving pelts on coyotes, but certainly effective at getting them! I knew a guy who fired 13 shots from his 243 to collect 13 6-pt bull elk over the years. It’s all about putting the bullet in the right spot.
The sloped shoulder of the .243 Winchester lends itself to two negatives: case stretch and barrel erosion.
Barrel erosion because of larger amounts of powder burning in the throat and barrel as compared to the .243 A.I. with its 40* shoulder which promotes more burning in the case. That 40* shoulder also reduces case stretch significantly.
Yes, yet the 243 Win. has been the world’s most successful 24-caliber for about 60 years now. In a hunting rifle, erosion isn’t a huge concern. Serious, repetitive, fast target shooting (an varmint shooting) can cause problems. But as many point out, barrels screw on and off and can be replaced much like tires on a truck. Still, I understand your point about better cartridge design. The 243 A.I. version address most of this quite nicely.
Ron,
You refer to the .308 as the “great grandmother” of the 6 Creed, but the grand old .250 Savage of 1915 would be closer to the right answer for me. I have to believe one of its offspring,the .250 Savage AI, necked down to 6mm was the inspiration for the 6 Creed and necked up to 6.5 for the 6.5 Creed with the shoulder reduced to 30 degrees.
Mike, this discussion is about like the debate about how many angels can dance atop a pin. Given the head and body dimension of the Savage and its 1915 release — 9 years after the 30-06 and 12 after the 30-03 — I suspect Savage got his inspiration for the 250-3000 from the 30-06. And, given the current head and base body dimensions of the 6 Creedmoor match that of the 308 Win., I’m giving the nod to it. Honestly, the guys at Hornady used the 30 TC case to form the 6.5 Creedmoor, and the latter to make the 6 Creedmoor. However, you’ll note the head and body base dimensions of the 30 TC match the 308 Win., which matches the 30-06 which matches the 7x57mm Mauser which matches the 8×57 Mauser which is the oldest of the bunch, so that’s probably where it all started. Shortening, straightening case taper and changing shoulder angle is easy compared to making a significantly different head/base size. As for 6mm Creedmoor inspiration, my hunting partner John Snow at Outdoor Life reports here (http://www.outdoorlife.com/6mm-creedmoor-next-thing-in-long-range-shooting) that it came directly from the 6.5 Creedmoor. But your 250 Savage AI is a nice, efficient round. It was shoved into the background soon after the 6mm Rem. and 243 Win. hit the fields in the mid 1950s, and those sprang from the 7×57 Mauser via the 257 Robts. and 308 Win, respectively. Whew. Incestuous at best.
Absolutely correct!
the 6 mm creedmore, is a new cartridge,? maybe not,,,,,,,, long ago there was a cartridge called the 6mm international,, in older sierra reloading manuals you can find it listed,,,,,,looks about the same as the 6 creedmore,,,,,,,nothing new really,,,,,
Amen to that! Absolutely right!
I really enjoyed that article. I own a .260, .308, .243, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5×55, and 6mm Rem. I was well on my way to build a 6 CM, and a 6.5 CM, but after reading your article, i think ill stick to my trusty old 6mm’s. I don’t intend to shoot over 500 yds or shoot long range competion.
Jeff, it sounds like you have that category covered!
Do you know what a donut is Ron? Do you know how accuracy is affected by dipping a long bullet into a case so you can put it in a mag or even chamber it? It’s not a water buffalo cartridge and is suitable for people who are recoil sensitive. Guess you have to load your own and shoot past 200 yards to get it. Sorry bud, you’re out of the loop on what we’ve learned about ammo and even your magazine recently hailed the 6.5creed and still didn’t touch on the perils of cramming a long bullet into brass multiple times.
The article on why the 6.5 creed (as well as 280ai, 300wsm, and 375r) is a modern marvel for folks that don’t wildcat and fireform and have time to remove donuts from their brass was a great read.
P.s. the 6 creed has been around a couple years now and being used by comp shooters that are winning. 6sir? Ever here of that? Why is it so good? Hmmmm
Sorry Ron, I think you missed the point and posting this really makes a person who knows some basics wonder.
*6slr
Chris, I’m sorry I’m not living up to your expectations. I do not pretend to be a world’s authority on every aspect of cartridge design, wildcatting, precision handloading and competition shooting. I understand there are authorities such as you on the cutting edge and I value your research and insights. Please feel free to share them with us. I am aware that John Snow arranged with Hornady to create the 6 Creedmoor from its 6.5 parent a couple of years back and I have heard that it is performing well in PSA competition. But, as a hunter, not a target shooter, I see no significant advantages in switching to it when I already have 243 Wins. and 6mm Rems. performing adequately for my needs. That was the gist of my article, not an in-depth treatise on precision handloading the 6mm CM. I trust that my readers can digest this information and disregard it if they need more detailed/advanced info.on the 6mm CM. By the way, are you seeing your donuts in cases with 40-degree shoulders more than 35-degrees or less? And how many resizings before they show up? And does the brand of brass play a significant role?
Sorry Ron, I think you’re a great writer and have read a ton of your articles in s.a.. All brass will donut after a couple firings with bullets crammed past the shoulder, which is inevitable with a long bullet with a 243 shoulder which is why all but a couple match shooters don’t use 243 as their go to. I still think the 243 is a wonderful round, and I appreciate its diversity above all else, it’s just apples and oranges and purposes.
I am extremely impressed by you posting my rant and appreciate your response. Thank you Ron, you are a a stand up guy.
You are welcome, Chris. As I noted earlier, I invite and appreciate input, information and new ideas from readers. Sharing is how we all help one another. I’m betting 99.9% of non-handloaders have never heard of interior donuts at shoulder/neck joints and probably 80% of handloaders never have. But now, thanks to you, a few more will. Thanks for the contribution.
I had heard of donuts, but only with regard to not eating too many of them lest my trousers not fit.
I had heard of Jo(h)n Snow, but only as King in the North on “Game of Thrones.”
Soooo, as a non-expert (but enthusiastic) shooter and hand-loader, thank you both for your insights!
I reload, but dont have any idea of what you mean br donut.
Donut is slang for the ring build-up of brass at the junction of the shoulder and neck inside a case that has been reloaded several times. It can interfere with bullets seated deeply (past the shoulder junction.) It can be reamed out internally with the proper reamer and a chuck/lathe. Some press it out and ream externally. Lots of confusion and contradictory advice on this topic on-line, so do thorough research.
Sorry Chris, you’re lost in the weeds on this bud.
Your referencing of donut formations at the neck are not due to seating long bullets. Rather, a donut is the result of continued neck sizing with bushing dies and always in conjunction with a slight bumping of the shoulder. This is normal. This donut will prevent the seating of longer bullets. It requires reaming the inside of the neck to remove it.
The standard .243 Winchester has long been “improved” by P.O. Ackley. The .243 Ackley Improved is indeed currently used by many competitors in 1000 yard matches. It is a perfect cartridge for the heavy match bullets in .243 and has proven itself to be such.
The 6mm Creedmore cannot keep up with it. Any attempt to do so will result in accelerated case deterioration as evidenced by premature primer pocket expansion and related issues such as head separation, galled lugs and stuck bolts.
I’m waiting to hear the first report of someone getting killed by a blown bolt from overloading the anemic Creedmores.
Either do your homework or communicate more precisely about a very precise subject because your arguments fell flat as written.
Ron- I found your article extremely informative. I’m building an RPR rig around the 6mm creedmoor now, so it’s interesting to see the good/bad/etc. I don’t bother trying to win debates about which cartridge is better for which application, because a guy who feels strongly about his choice for a given application is unlikely to change his mind, and that’s fine. I knew going into this that I’d hear plenty of “get off the 6mm bandwagon” banter, and at this point, I’m not looking for someone to change my mind, I’m just looking to get more familiar with my options and the 6mm’s ballistics. Anyway, keep up the good work, and thanks for the insights.
I shoot a 8 twist bartelin barreled Rem 700 243. It is a hammer with a 105 gr amax. 24 moa up from a 100 yard zero puts it on at 1000 yards. That’s flat brother. as for barrel life, I’m into about 600 rounds so far and have seen no change in accuracy so I keep shooting it. When she gives up it will be another 243 chambered barrel on the action. The 6mm creedmoor is sexy looking! But it’s
just another way to throw a 6mm bullet.
Only 24 MOA at 1000 is indeed flat, Greg although 251 inches of drop is still pretty impressive, especially when you see that trace arcing in there. So you don’t feel the need to go with the Ackley version 243? I’ve often been tempted by that, but never taken the plunge. BTW, have you lengthened your M700 magazine box so you can seat those long bullets out farther or are you running a long action, or just seating deep as needed? How close can you get to your lands with that ogive? Finally, as if I haven’t asked enough ? already, what’s your MV? Thanks.
Nice!
Another round for comparison is the 6mm-284. I have a rechambered Vanguard with a 1-10″ twist that shoots that cartridge. Just one of the 3 dozen or so rifles in my safe. I really enjoy shooting this little cheap coyote buster.
Sweet!
A few of you wrote of donuts when you shoot long bullets. I have never heard of them before this, I would like to know what they are. I have been reloading for about 40 years,buit i don’t shoot competion. I am curious. Thank you
Thomas, donuts build up as a result shortening cases to make a different cartridge. The worked/squeezed brass at the neck/shoulder junction “piles up” to create an internal ring. Firing and resizing cases can cause brass to accumulate at this “junction” too. This slight rim of brass isn’t a problem unless one seats a long bullet deep enough to engage it, which results in a tighter fit leading to increased pressures in a given load. If you load to peak pressures with no donut, then create one through multiple firings and resizings, there is potential for excessive pressure. Also for altering consistency in group size and location. You can ream out donuts, but the preferred technique seems to be squeezing them out with a mandrel and trimming the excess off externally. More experienced donut removers are welcome to elaborate.
Ron, these caliber/cartridge articles seem to create a lot of interest and controversy. Since I don’t handload or competition shoot, a lot of it does not seem to apply to me. I have centerfire rifles chamber for the 223, 243, 270, 308, 35 Remington, and 30-06. I hunt in Minnesota. In tight woods, my Marlin in 35 Remington is handy for deer. The 308, with better ballistics and higher energy, is also good in the Minnesota woods. I prefer it for black bear. However, my Browning rifle with a walnut stock that chambers the 308 is not nearly as handy or light as the Marlin. If I am going to be shooting across a field, say about 200 yards, then the 270 is a good choice. However, I would be able to hold dead on with the 308 and 30-06 as well. They are not quite as flat, but the difference is minor at 200 yards. Depending on how you sight in, you can stretch this out to 250 yards. I have not hunted Moose or brown bear yet. I hope to someday, and I think the 30-06 would be fine for them. My point is that I cannot justify another caliber, even when they demonstrate some ballistic superiority. Every time I add a caliber to the lineup, I have to stock the ammo and sight it in. There is also the question of ammo availability and flexibility. I can buy all but the 35 almost everywhere ammo is sold. All but the 35 come in various bullet weights and configurations. You can match the bullet to the game. I do understand the merits of various calibers for handloaders and competition shooters, but as a hunter do you see any need for me to add a caliber to my current lineup? Even if I plan a Western hunt, wouldn’t the 270 work? In an African plains game hunt, wouldn’t the 30-06 work? Thank you in advance for your thoughts on the subject.
You have it figured out, Louis. Your 270 Win, 308 Win and 30-06 can handle anything in N.A. and Africa. Just select the appropriate bullets for the tasks. Our multiples of cartridges are mostly to sell more guns and ammo and enable gun nuts to have fun. But don’t tell our spouses we don’t really need all these rifles.
Fortunately, after 49 years of marriage, my wife is enormously tolerant of my gun and fishing gear accumulation, which rivals a small sporting goods store. I am also tolerant of her online shopping and don’t ask what in all the boxes she orders. I just carry them in and say, “This box came for you dear.” By the way, I am an avid handgun enthusiast. Have you done any hunting with a handgun? I would love to see an article featuring handgun hunting if you are so inclined.
Hope to get to handgun hunting one of these days, Louise. Have done some and just got a new Kimber 10mm 1911 to work with.
It is an exciting time for the 10mm. I have a (Gen 3) Glock 20 and it is incredibly accurate. Kimber has one in the 1911 platform, and now Ruger is making one in 1911. Unfortunately, I live in California and few of these are on the DOJ approved list.
I have a Ruber SR1911 in 45ACP and am quite pleased with how well it is made, and Ruger’s 10mm looks very similarly made. Rock Island Armory is now making a 1911 in 10mm also.
Lastly, if you want a truly beautiful piece of craftsmanship, Wesson (owned by CZ) makes their Razorback RZ-10 for about $1,300. This factory pistol resembles what I would consider a factory issued custom made 1911.
Louis. It seems you and your wife know how to have a successful marriage.
I’ve shot 243 and 6mm all my life also there’s one point that everybody seems to be missing and if someone else mentioned this I’m sorry almost every 243 or 6mm that you buy off the factory Shelf has a rifle twist for a varmint bullet not for the heavy 100 – 115 grain 6mm bullets that we have available today, I have not brought or shot a factory 243 or 6mm that shot bullets heavier than a hundred grains in an acceptable way for me which leads me to speak up for the 6 Creedmoor I have a hunting rifle in 6 Creedmoor with a 8 twist barrel and I have varmint Target Barrel 6 grade that I’m fixing to break in my Snyder barreled lightweight 6 Creedmoor will put Copper Creek bullets in the same hole and I mean in the same hole I’m sorry I’m sticking with the Creedmoor I like the longer neck and I like the shoulder,, your 243 to me is not worth anything unless it has a new custom Barrel on it in an 8 twist or faster accuracy today is not what it was 20 or 30 years ago all of my rifles shoot in the teens forget that inch or less stuff I find a 6 Creedmoor easy to get to shoot, the factory 120 ELD match will shoot in the teens in my hunting rifle I can’t ask for much more
Good points about twist rate, Little Snake. You are right. If you want to shoot long range with extreme accuracy, the 6 Creedmoor should be your baby. I, however, am content to hunt my way inside 400 yards where MOA accuracy and 100-grain bullets fill my needs. Were I just starting my hunting/shooting career, I’d probably go with the 6 Creedmoor too.
Can i fire 6 rem through my 6mm creedmoor ruger percision rifle
No sir. The cartridge must fit the chamber and these two are not close in size or shape. They do fire the same caliber bullets, but that is all.
Guys, what the heck? Are we only limited to what’s available on the retail shelf when it comes to barrel twist?
Dang, if you want to shoot the heaviest match bullets in your .243 Win., .243 A.I., 260 Remington, 6mm PPC and etc., rebarrel your rifle with the proper twist! You’re not limited by the manufacturers guys.
I can’t believe this is a sticking point.
Michael, for many factory twist barrels are all they can afford or want to afford. With today’s inexpensive bolt-actions shooting sub MOA out of the bos for MSRP of $350 to $700, not many folks want to add a $300 barrel plus the costs of installing it. Major manufacturers could do us and themselves a major good turn by twisting up their rifling rates. But you’re right, aftermarket, fast twist barrels are easily obtainable. E.R. Shaw sells and installs them for about as good a price as anyone.
Ron
Is the 6 mm a barrel burning? And is this better than a 6.5 ?
Fernando, it depends on which 6mm and 6.5mm you are comparing. The higher the powder volume to bore diameter, the greater the chance for early barrel burn out. The 6mm Remington and 6mm Creedmoor are not considered barrel burners, but the 6mm-06 wildcat might be. The 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Rem. and not 6.5mm burners, but the 264 Win., 26 Nosler and 6.5-300 Wby. are.
I met Ron at the Illinois Deer & Turkey Expo in Bloomington around ’09. He just happened to wonder by our booth near the end of the show when they were having an after party for the exhibitors. It was a pleasure to meet him, and based on my review of the article and his follow up conversation here he is as class a guy that I remember meeting. Certainly your rifle IQ is well beyond average. Thanks for the information Ron and all who have contributed here in the comments as well. Been thinking about a new round for coyote and a deer backup and this round has been interesting me.
Thanks Lou. If you don’t already own a 243 of some kind, the 6 Creedmoor is a great option because most rifles chambered for it use fast twist barrels that will stabilize the new, long, high B.C. bullets coming on the market. Of course, if you don’t plan to shoot past 500 yards, the older 243s will more than suffice.
l have reloaded quite a number of cf rifle cartridges over the years and shot the .243 Win extensively.
My issue with it was excessive brass flow to the neck l guess aided by that long anything but sharp shoulder design.
Case head separation was always looming after several firings. Went thru one heck of a lot of brass.
l shot a lot of match with it back when and seemed to be constantly having to turn down the necks.
Never had that issue with any other cartridge ever.
lt made for a lot of extra work to keep that rifle running.
On the other side of the coin l also hunted deer with it almost exclusively. ln that application the 95 gr Nosler pt was my go to bullet and made for a very deadly combo. The Tikka M-60 l was using had a very long throat and l could seat the bullets out quite far just a hair off the lands and still run fine thru the box mag.
lt was easy 1/2″ rifle l also had a varmint load with the 75 gr Sierra that would do the same.
Never had to worry about bullet bases below the shoulder with that rifle!
lf l were in the market for a 24 cal now and had to choose knowing what l know now for just general purpose hunting .243 Win is fine but if any amount of reloading is in the cards l would do the Creedmore version for sure.
Try the .243 A.I. and you’ll alleviate all of those problems.
The 6mm Creedmore gives the avid shooters and hobby guys something new to play with. The other 99% of us shooters would be better of with a .243 that you can buy ammo at Walmart or your local hardware store. I’ve shot the 6mm Remington since 1972 in four different model 7oo’s and the nice long neck and extra case capacity for me made it a better choice. Take a look at Noslers reloading data and the only case in the .243 section that out preforms a 6mm remington is the .240 WBY Mag at about 3 times the cost for brass. Remington failed miserably when they engineered the . 244 and opened the door for Winchester’s new 243. To the basic reloading guy like me the 6mm Remington is the better of the two cases. We have to reinvent the wheel now and then to keep people interested.
Gerry, I agree except I don’t think Remington failed miserably when they designed the 244 Rem. They failed by not giving it a faster twist barrel and subsequently in how they promoted it. Things got real confusing when they re-introduced it as the 6mm Rem. The 244 should have been a natural seller given the fame of a few 44-caliber cartridges. Oh well, we can still build custom rifles around it and handload for it.
The .243 A.I. is even better.
Great stuff!! As avid shooters we rise to the bait like hungry trout. The gun manufacturers continuously present offerings to keep the doors open and their share holders paid. I have a Tikka T3 Varmint 243 that groups at 100yds as well as any of the examples of the 6mm Creedmore I have seen while researching the possibility of a new and better caliber.
I am an older shooter, but new at Benchrest shooting. I go to my local 100yd range and out shoot all the young lads. They are always amazed and ask what is the secret. Good gun, good caliber, good trigger, great optics, ( can’t hit what you can’t see, and if you manage to get older, this becomes even more important ), highly detailed reloading, and trigger time!!!!!
“Great success usually follows great preparation and practise” The best shooters I know follow the afore or they shoot a lot and only have ” one gun”. David W. Cowan CSI (Ret)
Thanks Ron!
Long-time listener, First time caller here, Ron. First, I want to say thanks – I always enjoy your articles and you seem to approach things fairly. Second, I don’t want to be the guy who justifies the thing that he bought as the best…everyone can agree that there is no magic caliber. Much like using a pitching wedge instead of a driver, differing situations require different calibers (or so I tell the wife). So I only state the following to add another data point to the pile:
I have always felt that for the vast majority of hunting done in here in the Northeast, a .243 is sufficient (as a huge hypocrite, I also own a 7mm Magnum that I feed 168gr Bergers). When I was looking for a new caliber chambering for my Savage .308, the 6mm Creedmoor whispered to me. Here, I says, is a “.243 Improved” with factory-support, minimal recoil, sharper shoulder and a short/fat powder stack, a long neck, and it is generally chambered in fast-twist barrels so that the average guy can actually take advantage of the high BC bullets. I ordered up a 1-7.5 twist McGowen 24″ barrel and screwed it onto the action, and took several boxes of the 108gr. ELD-Match out to the range. Since that day, I have accumulated several 8-shot groups that are 0.6″ or less at 200 yards. We could argue about why it does it, but the fact is that I have never actually seen or heard of a .243 Win. that could do that. I’m sure someone will prove me wrong. So take it for what it’s worth. I understand that accuracy is not everything – especially when hunting big coastal brownies. But there is certainly some truth in the old saw of “I’d rather hit with 9mm than miss with a .45”.
I dearly love the .30-06, and I often run a Garand in competition. But when someone shows up to the match with an M14 in .308, you know right away that it is going to be uphill the whole way, and you’re most likely going to come in second. It’s not that the .30-06 is bad, it’s just that the .308 is better. This is how I look at these new “modern wonder” cartridges. The old stuff works, and it works darn well, and if that’s good with you…great! But in my humble opinion and experience, I believe that the new stuff does work better.
Excellent letter, Josh. Thanks.
Why buy either the 6 mm or 6.5 mm Creedmores??? Buy a .243 or .264.
Go for those if they are what you want, Randall. Both are great cartridges, although the 264 Win. Mag. is currently poorly supported by ammunition manufacturers. The 243 Win. hasn’t the long range potential of the Creedmoors, although faster twist, custom barrels and new, high B.C. bullets for handloaders are bringing it much closer.
Thanks guys! Okay I planned on going to bed after the ball dropped at midnight but I resumed my 6mm CM research trying to prove to myself that I don’t really need one since my 243 has been in my stable for 25 years and I adore the thing. But dangit if a coyote pops his head out at the far corner of the back forty I want to be able to pile drive that deer killin savage worse than he wants his next meal. They have killed far to many of our deer in the area. Mostly fawns.
I have reloaded since I was a kid in the 70’s and I am all about twist rates and efficiency to but at the same time I understand Ron’s side here & 99% of the time that’s me to. I also see the slight gap my Remington 700 has with heavier bullets but my gun hates the lightweight bullets to so I stay under 100 gn. I almost bought a 204 Ruger but that’s not really a desired long range hard hitting cartridge IMHO and since Ruger has a 6mm CM with a threaded Can Ready barrel I think that may just be my new “AT&T long distance is the next best way to pop a dog cartridge”. I’ll go out on a limb to save more deer but my fear is that ole reliable may not get the love its been getting with the new sheriff in town. Decisions decisions. Happy New Year to you all!!!!!
Frank, I think you need to move into the 6CM if you’re wanting to shoot a lot past 500 yards. The cartridge is tailored for extreme range shooting and really asserts its dominance over the 243 in that application. Most of the advantage is realized thanks to the 1:8 to 1:7.5″ rifling twists built into 6CM rifles. The other is the long barrels (usually 26 to 28″) on 6CMs. You can load 107-gr., high B.C. bullets on 243s by seating deeper, but unless you add a fast twist barrel, they won’t stabilize. I’d keep the 243 for hunting and get the 6CM for experimenting extreme range. Then you’ll be set for any coyote in any zip code.
Yes sir I do believe you are correct. I like that – “any coyote in any zip code”. I’ll be borrowing that line to my buddies. Plus – if I’m not mistaken I don’t think I will have a problem cutting out a lot of that free bore. I love the idea of clip mag guns but not when they restrict my bullets winking at the rifling lands prior to launch. When I flick my safety off I want the bullet and rifling shaking hands and high fiving the teamwork they’re about to partake in with me. I sure would like to hear some chatter on this part of the equation as far as what guys know about Savage and Ruger American rifles. My max distance would be about 500 yards and it looks like they have the right twist rates on this new 6mm rocket. In the meantime I will try a new 80 grain bullet as a stop gap measure for my 243. But I do believe the 6mm is in my future.
My old bsa cf2 regularly shoots sub half moa out to 700+ meters , at 100 meters (provided I do my part) it will put 5 bullets through literally a single bullet hole! Do I need a 243 designed to work in an ar platform? No thanks, if I can’t hit it with the first shot well enough to kill it with my bolt action then I will sell all my guns and retire!
What a ride since my first post. I decided to go ahead with the Savage 110 varmint in 204 mid last year and its a tack driver and does good. But I went ahead and ordered a Savage in 6mm CM this week after all and I look forward to getting it set up. My gut feeling is it will be my go to dog killer. I want a little more energy on tap so the dogs don’t run 100 yards before piling up and it’ll be far better at bucking the wind on those long shots. If it works like I think it will – I may give my venerable 243 to my nephew to keep it in use and in the family.
One more thing. I’m going to be careful if I pull the trigger on a new 6mm CM because I want to be able to seat that bullet just off the lands and I don’t know of a gun that takes a clip mag that would allow that without shooting singles. Any suggestions in that regard would be appreciated.
Ron,
Great article. I’m learning a lot here. I would like to ask for your thoughts. I currently deer hunt with a 7mm mag. or 30-30 in TN. I would like to put the 7mm in the safe unless I go out West for elk or something, and to keep from beating that 27 in. barrel in the brush. I am also retiring the Marlin 30-30 brush gun for sentimental purposes. So I am in the market for a short action deer rifle that can still reach out there if needed, and of course a little long range fun at the range. I’m not reloading yet, but have bought the RCBS kit to start. So I’ll start with factory ammo then at some point reload. I also have a 223 and 22-250 for varmint. I’m leaning toward the Creedmore 6.5 or maybe the 7mm-08. Would there be an advantage of getting the 6mm Creed over the 6.5? Like if I get into amateur competition or something. Whats your thoughts of adding one of those 3. I’m basically looking at Ruger’s current lineup. I’m open for other short action suggestions as well. Thanks for what you contribute here.
Justin
Justin, I think a short, light rifle chambered for 7mm-08 is the optimum woods/farmland whitetail set up. If accurate, it can easily run past 600 yards, although I don’t recommend shooting game at that distance. I’ve used 18.5 inch barrel 7mm-08 Rems. to take mountain goats at 350 yards, no problem, but it’s ideal in heavy cover and out to 300 yards. Hits much harder than the 30-30, although deer won’t notice or care. If you think you’ll get into an extreme range shooting game, the 6.5 Creedmoor or 6mm Creedmoor are better options, but you’ll want them in a PRS design rifle: heavy, 26″ to 28″ barrel, maybe adjustable stock. Just not ideal for hunting. It may be boring, but a 22″ bl, short-action bolt in 7mm-08 makes for one fine, all-round rifle. I’d use it on nearly anything. Good luck.
Thanks for the reply Ron! I love what you are doing here. I recently discovered your site trying to research, err debunk, the Creedmore hype. There’s still plenty of info. for me to digest. Thanks again!
Ron-
Great advice on the 7mm-08. Compare it to a .270 and both loaded with a premium 140 grain bullet, the 7mm-08 is a very good selection. Those two are hunting cartridges. They are not target cartridges adapted to hunting. I always hunt with Mr. Murphy. It forces me to prepare and plan for hunt stopping events. Personal equipment, hunting equipment and travel plans always change without notice or short notice. If I need a box of 7mm-08 in the Limpopo region of South Africa I know the store that stocks it…but I’m not sure they carry 6mm or 6.5mm Creedmore. I have found target shooters struggle to be hunters because the hunting environment constantly changes and the target shooters environment is more controlled and predictable with ballistics and wind doping. My PH says put a hole in ’em and they go in the salt.
Thanks Ron! Another good article like your .25-06(my favorite) vs. 6.5CM. I believe we were both born in the same year as the Corvette and Playboy magazine. Back in the day….
Corvettes, Playboy and us. What a year!
Hey Ron. You are absolutely right on this. Back in the eighties I picked up an A-bolt in this caliber for my daughter. I cut it down, and she took it to the woods and killed a PA buck. It sat idle for many years until I decided to try it out for a tree stand gun. It worked perfectly with it’s 12 and 3/4-inch LOP, allowing me to not have to become a contortionist to get a good cheek weld from almost any position. I killed my biggest PA buck with it in 2011, before moving to Wyoming. Age and 8 eye operations forced me to give up hard kicking rifles, although I still own a few. The 7-08 is a real Gem. The shot I was able to make on the buck still amazes me today. The A-bolt is amazingly accurate, versatile, and just downright COOL!
the 243 can run longer bullets… just use a faster twist.
.243 winchester barreled with a faster twist will handle the longer bullets for the 6mm creedmoor…. so it’s a marketing thing. Factory .243 1:10 will not handle the longer bullets, yes. Sierra’s 107 BTHP says on the box, 1:8 twist or faster.
Great article and makes good sense as well.
I’ve been a 6mm Rem shooter for 50+ years and found it perfect for hunting as well as 300 bench rest shooting.
Been shooting a 6mm Lee Navy for a while. Looking forward to switching to the longer bullets. Still need 130 grain bullets to match the original loads. Glad you are catching up with me.
Now there’s a round I’ve never fired. I’ve seen a couple of cartridges. Do you happen to know the twist rate of that barrel? I’m guessing 1-8″ maybe 1-7″. I think the heaviest bullet you’ll find for it these days will be the 115-gr. Berger. Load some up and get back to me with the MV you get. I might catch up to you yet…
Excellent article Mr. Spomer. I am not a long range target shooter myself and really have no need for a 6mm Creedmoor either. You presented the material in a very unbiased and very information fashion allowing the readers to formulate their own opinions. One of my favorites was the 6mm Remington. It was somewhat of an oddball even back in 1977 when I treated myself to a college graduation gift of a Ruger #1 B in 6mm. Sadly that rifle has since been rebarreled to a 280 Ackley Improved.
Thank you, Mr. King. I, too, had a 6mm Rem. in the 1970s. Foxes, coyotes, whitetails, mule deer, pronghorns and even a few jackrabbits came to regret this. I’ll bet if you shopped around you could find another.
It’s 1 in 6.5 inches on my 1895 Winchester s but the 1899 Remington Lee seems closer to 1 in 6 at 2700 fps the 87 grs tend to rupture due to rotation. It leaves comet looking bullet holes from the lead coming out the side of the jacket. Looks exactly like a comma with a big center.
Ron, I hunt and habe all the hunting rifles I need (204, 223, 7-08, 300wsm, etc) but I know that my hunting days will soon be over (knees priblems), therefore I want to start getting prepared for shooting paper and steel. What do you suggest 6 CM or 6.5 CM, that way I can shoot all the way or there for many more yrs.
Luis, I’d go with the 6 CM for pure target shooting. Good luck! Sorry about the knees.
Hey Ron! Great article and forum here, I’m learning a lot. This has been my question as well. Why the 6CM over the 6.5? On the same page, 6mm Rem vs, 6 CM, vs 6.5 CM, vs 260? I go from .223 to 7mm Rem Mag and need a mid level cartridge. I want to be able to pick a round that excells 500-1000 meters. Target shooting would be primary with the occasional thumping of a coyote. I read an article showing the 6mm Rem has performed well by some top precision shooters along with 6.5 CM. 6.5 CM & the 6mm Rem seem great, but the 260 keeps popping up as a candidate. Thanks for the great advice you’ve been giving here!
Reyn, you ask too many good questions, each of which involves a long explanation. At the core of all, however, is ballistic performance as it relates to shooters’ needs. For hunting, the 260 Rem. is the best option of these just because it generates the fastest MV with good, medium game bullet weights and high B.C.s. The 6.5 Creedmoor is tailored for maximum performance in a short action with long, high B.C. bullets and long barrel life. The 6mm Creed. nearly mimics it with less recoil. Were I just wanting to put bullet on target at 500-100 m., I’d go 6mm Creed. Were I hunting, 260 Rem. There are no bad options here!
Ron, I hunt and have all the hunting rifles I need (204, 223, 7-08, 300wsm, etc) but I know that my hunting days will soon be over (knees priblems), therefore I want to start getting prepared for shooting paper and steel. What do you suggest 6 CM or 6.5 CM, that way I can shoot all the way over there for many more yrs.
Thanks Ron for the excellent article and to everyone else for many great comments.
I have a 1 in 7 twist Krieger that I will leave at 29 inches. I will re-barrel my current 243 with its 11 twist Heart as its mostly shot out..
Using the new Lapua brass and some H1000 I think it will breath some new life into an old cartridge.
I think that I can launch a 115VLD or a 110SMK faster than any 6MM Creed can! Besides I have to re-chamber my old 700 in 243 again its traditional at this point, I scoff at throat wear and brass trimming….
I like the idea of hitting targets, 4 out of 12 shots at a mile with a $390.00 rifle and a $300.00 SWFA scope in fixed 10x. I don’t hunt much, mostly punch paper and sage rats in OR. 1-3 hundred yes. Budget says fun with the Ruger Predator.
Invariably, every article that compares the .243 to either the 6mm CM, or the 6.5 CM ends up boiling down to twist rate. Simple solution? Show the mfgs. that we want some choices in 243 with faster twist barrels. John Whidden sure seems to keep spanking the two CM dahlins every year at the Wimbledon cup with his .243s. If you are a serious long range competitive shooter then of course, you’ll be spending big bucks to build your custom rifles, be they .243s or 6mm 6.5 CMs or 6.5-284s, yada yada. But for the every day guy who wants to hunt and do some long range casual stuff, the 243 is still king of the roost IMO. Go to any retail store and check out the inventories of 243 ammo vs Creedmore ammo. Sure, there is plenty of 6.5 Creedmore , but you’ll be lucky to find one box of 6mm Creedmore. And they will both be $40 a box premium stuff. Seeing any $20 Green box, Fed Blue box or Winchester grey box in those two cartridges? Remmy, Savage and Howa are all making $600 26″ heavy barrel varmint models in .243 with 1 in 9 twist barrels and they easily stabilize the Hornady 105 Match, the Berger 95 VLD (with a b.c. of .512~) and other bullets streamlined enough to reach 1000 yards with 24 MOA of drop from a 200 yard zero. Even the cheezy $300 Ruger American has a 1 in 9 barrel and is a tack driver at longer distances. Cudos to Hornady and Ruger for collaborating on the 6.5 CM and bringing it to the mass market. They can’t keep the Precision rifle and Hornady ammo on the shelves, but my eyes glaze over when I hear some doofnut go on about how the 6.5 CM is leap years ahead of the .243 Win. Someone is keeping that secret from John Whidden.
To me if you’re buying a factory hunting rifle and don’t reload, get a 243. If you’re like me and have a custom switch barrel PRS rig, get a 6 Creed, 6×47, or 6SLR. Go with the improved shoulder angle and an optimum twist rate for your bullet selection.
I have 6.5×47 & 7mm barrels for my switchbarrel, and just recently added a Proof Research 1:8 6 Creed to the mix. It will be shooting a 105 JLK in the 3200+ fps range (way better than a 243) suppressed with a SAS 6.5 Barricade can. Mine will mainly be a lightweight flat shooting hunting rig, that will see occasional LR steel. I chose a JLK because it doubles as a hunting/LR bullet with a decent BC. If I were just shooting steel I would go with the DTAC.
Dear Ron,
Thank you for this good discussion!Reminds me of the good days when we hunted together in Africa!I think at that time I still guided with the 240 Wby. and shot a couple animals(plainsgame!) with it with 100 gr. bullets and for culling used the 87 gr. V-Max later! I think the 6 mm are some of the most fun calibers to “play” with!Very effective for hunting,cheap to shoot,lots of components,very many different cartridges available and that should give every target shooter and hunter his choice or niche!Low recoil!It is a very underrated caliber!!!I don’t say one should shoot big antelope etc. with it but it is shurely capable of it with the right bullet and in the right hands!Now ,where the heavy 105 gr. and 115 gr bullets are availabe it opens even more doors with the combination of fast twist barrels!I am and will always have at least one .243 in my gun room!I am just busy developing my own 6 mm!The long nek of the 240 Wby. a 32 degree shoulder angle and the total caselength on the 55 mm !It’s mother case will be the 6.5 Swedish Mauser!The barrel will be a 1:7.5 for 105 gr to 115 gr bullets!Hope to see you again and we might hunt again!I know there are enough cartridges on the market but it is just fun to “cook up your own soup” that’s why I do it.My hobby!It is just fun to develop ,calculate and figure out new stuff with lots of unknown and make it work!(I have already my own design and cartridge for big- game and it works better than planned, a “404 Scholz Express”!
Kindly Ernst Scholz
Sounds as if you’re having fun with those, Ernst. Enjoy.
Hi Ron
Have been reading all the letters on this subject and would like to comment on them. I come from New Zealand and have been shooting and reloading for many years, hunted when I was younger but have been shooting F Class for the last 10 years. I Started out in F Class with a 6.5×55 with a Kreger barrel and
have done very well with it and then had a 6XC build with a Lilja 1=8 twist barrel andI shot the Sierra 107g and 105 Bergers, this was a very accurate rifle, the barrel lasted about 1700 rounds with Reloaders 17 and yes I did have to remove donuts. I had a new rifle built for me with a Lilja 1=7 twits 30″ barrel so that I could use the Berger 115g bullets along with IMR 4831 powder, this was a very good
combination an was a more accurate than the first 6XC but the brass did not last as long but barrel life was better this the slower powder considering it being a 1=7 twist. I made 6XC brass out of 6mm Creedmoor as theirs not much difference, why the 6mm Creedmoor when the 6XC was already out and not much difference between them, I also had a 243 Ruger Target Grey with a 1=9 twist shooting the 95g Sierra M/K but it just was not up to job. I do think that some of the older cartridge’s have been over looked with the marketing going on at the moment on these new cartridge’s that are out now. I have had a new rifle just build in 256 Newton with a 1=8 twist 30″Hardy Barrel on a Barnard action, these are all made in New Zealand and its shooting 1/4 MOA at 600yds, with 123g Scenar brass is formed from Hornady 25-06 brass. With my 6XC now needing a new barrel I am now considering having it made into a 6mm Remington with a 1=7 twist Hardy barrel 30″ long so I can shoot the high bc bullets, with the 6mm Remington having a long neck it would not be a Barrel burner and loaded back a little with a slow powder it will push the heaver bullets with out straining the brass like it would a 6mm Creedmoor or a 6CX and can be up there with a 6×284.
Regards Kevin Taylor
Kevin thanks for the details from down under! Sounds as if you guys have a strong wildcatting streak down there. I need to get back down there some day. Hunted buf. south of Darwin around 2002 and enjoyed all but the flies and dust. Planning to hunt NZ this spring, but don’t know if we’ll take the time to hop over to the big island. Continued success in your shooting, mate.
Ron can you tell me if i can go with an 18 in. barrel for varmit hunting and still get good results with a 6mm. Cm. I want something short that can still reachout to 600 yards, what cal. would work best in a short barrel rifle
Angelo, you always sacrifice MV as you reduce barrel length. Figure roughly 30 fps per inch removed, so if a 24″ 6CM barrel is giving you 3,000 fps with a 105-gr. bullet, it should hit around 2,820 from an 18″ bl. With a 200 yard zero, this will cost you an inch more drop and 1/2-inch more wind deflection at 300 yards, 10 inches more drop and 2.5 inches more wind at 600 yards. Necking a 6.5 Grendel down to 6mm might make for a more efficient option, but hardly worth the trouble in my estimation. As long as you know the trajectory curve and wind drift of your load, an 18″ barrel isn’t much of a sacrifice. It being shorter, it should be stiffer than an equivalent diameter 24″ barrel and possibly more accurate, though this isn’t guaranteed.
I have an non-accurized Sako Forester with a genuinely shot out barrel (personal load book says 2,300+ rounds) that fails to deliver better than ~2moa anymore (originally a consistently 3/4moa rifle).
Also have a VERY lightly used 22″ Shilen Select Match barrel (6mm bore, Light Varmint contour, 1:8 twist) that I am looking at rechambering and using as a replacement.
Have been looking at all the various short action 6mms and making a choice is humbling.
Most likely candidate is the 243AI because it’s main job would be coyotes, smaller pigs and Texas whitetail (under 150lbs) from ~500yds and closer.
Yes, I do handload and have done so for decades and have had a number of AI rifles over the years (22-250AI, 7x57AI, 30-30AI, 375 H&H AI).
Am I off on the notion that for MY use, the extra “horsepower” overrides the small margin of inherent “competition” accuracy on a GAME (not match) rifle?
(But also keep in mind this is a true benchrest quality, fast twist barrel going on it.)
Especially considering that “in a pinch”, I can always fire 243 Win ammo in it…
The marginal little bit of extra recoil over 6mmCM is not an issue either (I carry a 45/70 in the brush for pigs, a 300 WinMag for bigger game and big hogs out to 1K yards and eventually building a 338 EDGE for shooting past 1K yards across open crop fields).
Thanks,
WCDSr
WCDSr, you are not off in your thinking. Were I building for hunting and handloading like you, I’d go with the extra volume in the 243 AI. The additional 100 to 200 fps MV may serve you well on a few imprecisely known distances and misjudged winds. If you end up with a 3/4 MOA set up, you’re parking all bullets inside a coyote’s vitals at 500 yards. Congrats on getting to shoot so much that you burned out a barrel!
One of the issues that always struck me about twist rate and barrel issues in general was the desire of most gun buyers for versatility – as a cost-saving measure. We’d all like to have one rifle versatile enough to take from squirrels to elephants, but it’s not in the cards. Or is it?
When it comes to up-weighting bullets for longer distance shooting or to take larger game, as has become fashionable lately as long-distance shooting has become popular, it always seems like the twist rate required is just a little more than the twist rate in YOUR barrel. What you don’t hear much of, however, is the alternate consequence – if there is one. That is, putting, say, a 1:5 twist rate barrel in a 6mm Remington to cover even extremely long (and much heavier), high BC bullets of the future (in case you want to take part in, say, target shooting at satellites!), but want also to retain the option of shooting lightweight bullets as well.
From an external ballistics point of view, how fast a twist is too fast? Obviously, if you load a bullet with a light jacket to very high muzzle velocity in a fast twist battle, it will never reach its target – like the stories of early .220 Swift bullets disappearing in a puff of lead from centrifugal force. Modern solid copper bullets, with much higher tensile strength than lead, aren’t going to do that. But is there such a thing as overstabilizing bullets? Conversely, if so, can an overly fast twist rate with light bullets be compensated for by dropping muzzle velocity, to keep the spin rate within limits? Isn’t it the gyroscopic force that’s the issue – which is the product of twist rate and velocity – not solely the effect of one or the other?
And from a terminal ballistics point of view, isn’t spin rate an important component of bullet deformation and mushrooming after target contact? Having shot water jugs myself with my hot-loaded Ruger 77 in .220 Swift, the explosive effect of bullet disintegration seems to be the destructive element, rather than the hydraulic concussion from the high velocity – at least from looking at the shredded jugs, which look like they were attacked by a rabid tiger.
Lots of questions – some in the realm of physics, I suspect – but you’d think that by tuning twist, bullet weight, and velocity as partners that you could achieve greater versatility – i.e. fast twist, heavy bullet, but load (counter-intuitively) to lower velocity for lighter bullets and smaller game with that fast twist, to keep centrifugal forces in check – relying on bullet design to provide the desired terminal ballistic effect. Why can’t a fast-twist 6mm be loaded for everything from squirrel to elk, both short and extremely long range, with accuracy? Inquiring minds want to know!
George, I have no double blind studies to draw upon, but it strikes me that being over-stabilized is like over-pregnant. You either are or aren’t. But it is possible to be pregnant with twins or even quads. Spinning a short, lightly-jacketed, soft-lead core bullet too fast can, indeed, spin it apart. Also, extra short bullets like a round nosed 100-grain in .308 probably aren’t going to fly as precisely as a much longer bullet. Also, there is a law of diminishing returns inherent in stretching a given caliber ever longer. There’s only so much surface area against which the gases can push. Mass and friction increase, pressures rise or velocity drops.
Sfc Smith;
Sorry guys but it has been said (guietly) in very hushed tones that the 6mms CM is being reconsidered by the US Axxx as a M-16 24in. Replacement for their sniper weapons.the 109gr. At a ?mile? Is as deadly as what they now shoot with far less stress and phy. Degradation.
Ron, thanks for the article. I have honestly took off keeping up with bullets and rifles a few years recovering from pancreatic cancer. Now ten years. Anyway getting back in and building a savage model 10 heavy barrel that I bought years ago. So of course I start reading up on the latest bullets and loads which is how I get to your articles. I honestly can’t believe how dumb I was not to mention my dad all his friends and mine. We should have known they would come out with all these new calibers (or not so new). I never have owned a 243 but I knew it could shoot. Over the years we have had fun trying to out shoot our friends and whatever rifle they used. Of course blaming poor shooting or good shooting on the rifle and the caliber. I recall one friend who had a 243 and honestly he just wasn’t a very good shot. Never took the time to shoot. So at the range he does nothing but complain about this rifle and what a poor shooter it is. Of course I go on to tell him all the things from scope to bedding that could be wrong with it but let me have a go with it. I loaded the rifle and standing with no rest shot at the 400 yard gong. BONG. The 500 yard gong, BONG. The 600 yard gong, BONG. I looked at him and said “just luck but it might not be the rifle.” That poor 243 it never new the 6mm Creedmoor was coming.
All of you just need to grow up and admit you’re all too girly to handle shooting a 30.06 or even the .308 cartridge which has less recoil than other .30 caliber cartridges. You gals might as well swap CO2 cartridges with each other, hold hands and go pellet spelunking on your way around the block selling your girl scout cookies. GTFUDA’s
I enjoyed this article and find the creedmoor calibers frivolous.
My suggestion to any reader trying to decide which Creedmoor to buy, is to buy a .243 and a .308 both with a 1-10 twist. That way, you will have a massive choice of bullet weights to choose from. You could shoot roughly 58gr all the way to 180gr. The Creedmoor calibers are both inferior to .308 in my opinion.
Time has shown your opinion to be roadkill. So sorry.
Every new cartridge is a trap and they are already being subverted by a new cartridge, case, upper, lower, stock maker and trigger upgrades.
The 6.5PRC is better than the 6mm and 6.5 Creedmoor and are different case entirely but its not better for everyone – maybe the sports writer, maybe the long range competition shooter entry but they spend thousands on each component so they are laughing at the peak performance and 150ft velocity increases as commoners ogle over nothing.
Remington – engineers and upper leaders sunk the 244 ship and could have averted most of the 8 years spent saying, come on it will selllllllll. The market was calling for the heavier rounds to increase effectiveness on medium sized game and they didn’t listen. They also didn’t watch their competition and ask why they offered 1:10 when we were only doing 1:12 slower twist rates? Your market segment desired heavier bullets which your production schedule and twist rate could not accommodate without collapse and they chose production schedules and deadlines over lets beat Winchester with our case, powder and velocity and offer different rate of twist for heavier bullets too. The Narrative would be a much different depiction about the 244 Remington capturing the market with higher velocities and more stopping power with heavier bullets – marketing failure and death by deadlines and production schedules instead pulling the reigns back and doing it right by giving customers what they wanted – not another varmint rifle with light bullets.
I own a 6mm Remington and 2 boxes of 244 Remington federal 20 round boxes and have taken deer in the neck, shoulder and lungs with 100grains. I would never take a shot at an animal unless it were ethical and I would say the 6mm would take just about anything but I wouldn’t try Alaskan brown bear unless I had a 500smith and Wesson on my side. The best 243 is nothing in amateur’s hands that lacks trigger control, breathing and support and the worst 6mm with average and scope and average skill will be better everytime, The worst person with the best 6mm rem/BR cannot be used well by somebody who doesn’t know how to use it either – you cannot buy tiger woods’ golf clubs and expect to play par or below and just because you buy Creedmoor 6mm/6.5mm doesn’t men anything except that you have enough money to buy it and pull it out of the safe and say look at my Creedmoor that just sits here.
6.5PRC will almost keep up with the 300WM and WSSM and yet less recoil – do you need a PRC if you have a nice shooting 300wm – no!!! PRC will present problems in Tajikistan if your luggage and ammo doesn’t show up? If it does you have a lighter rifle, lighter rounds and you get to tell people about the 6.5 PRC so you can watch as they say they didn’t know and 10 years down the road you can tell somebody about the next newest cartridge.
Buy if you want and buy the next thing – you could buy all the Weatherby’s and been done long ago to cover the globe and hunting styles.
Maybe next cartridge is the 7.5mm Creedmoor or 7.5 Rock River Arms or the 7.5mm Weatherby from necked down 8mm case or who knows but its already being developed now just like all other wildcats started like the 300 whisper nobody but 4% of the population knows AAC robbed the cartridge under government contract for SPECOPS close quarters sub sonic harder hitting round never designed to compete with the AK47 but to use same mags, lowers and BCG’s as the AR-15.
I am not buying because I have the 6mm Remington and 308 to cover the medium sized game area – the 300 savage lever action flip away black dot scope with peep sights is a little more rudimentary but will get the job done as well and at 90 years old that’s pretty good.
6.5 PRC is where I would be swinging my money but you have Grendel freaks, creedmoor only now in the last 15 years, weahterby’s only, savage platform and accu everything, benchrest/target shooters with 8-12 thousand dollar accuracies.
Do we need an AAC 300BLK pistol (to subvert SBR tax but still have suppressor stamp tax – but anytime you can legally take away money from uncle sam and piss off a liberal its worth it) with sound suppressor – yes because its addbass – truck gun, tree stand gun or close in weapon support at home/field. R There people who think not, people who think it was meant to tackle the AK47 – yes and those people dont need to buy it just like the fly fisherman dont need to buy worms or spoons – its choice but dont knock other peoples choices BECAUSE WE HAVE HIT SHOUSE LIBERALS KNOCKING EVERYTHING WE DO AND WE ONLY HELP THEM BY PICKING THE SLY FHIT FROM THE PEPPER.
Buy what you want if your family is already taken care of and have fun with your new creedmoor that will be obsoletely irrelevant in 10 years while somebody tries to tell you why it is because they have a load worked up and it can beat the new 7.5mm Creedmoor just like the 6.5 Grendel beats the 6.5mm Creedmoor somehow?
Now to add to the mix. Weatherby has started putting 1 in 7.5″ twists on their 240 Weatherby Mark V’s.
That is a smart move on Weatherby’s part. Hope others follow suite and do the same for the 22-250 and several other cartridges.
and .243 Mark V Deluxe.
With the introduction of 243 and 7.5 twist rate is there still any advantage with 6mm Creedmoor when using factory ammo < 500 yards?
William: I assume you reference 243 Winchester cartridge? Not if the same bullets are loaded. The challenge is finding 243 Win. ammo topped with the highest B.C. bullets matching those typically atop 6mm Creedmoors. The 243 Win. has 4 or 5 grains more capacity than the 6mm Creedmoor so has the potential to outperform it in good handloads. Some will argue that long, high B.C. bullets intrude into powder space in the 243 Win., but not the Creedmoor. Yes, but if the 243 starts with a 4-grain capacity advantage, a bit of bullet intrusion amounts to a wash, no? At any rate, if you shoot the highest (105-115-grain) B.C. bullets in the Creed but just the best 100 or 95-gr. in the 243 Win., at 500 yards the Creed enjoys a 2-inch drop advantage and significant 5-inch windage advantage.
My only interest with 6 Creed is the fact the brass is need for 22 creedmoor,which I’m a huge fan of.
Long time not hearing from you!Great article as usual!(Unfortunately I was kicked off your forum and never got mail from you!?Any problems?
DearRon I hope you and your family are all well and going strong!
I am a van of the 6mm cartridges(.cal) all my live!Because they are so versetile,got such a great amount of components,little recoil and deadly on big- antelope in the right hands!They can be used for varmints and normal antelope hunting without bankrupting the shooter!As you know my goto cartridge is and has been since the last 36 years my 240Wby.!Culling,predator control and varminting as well as a bit competition!In my opinion with the new heavy bullets(aerodynamic) and the combination of faster twist (and progressive!) barrels as well as better bullet construction,modern powders they became much more lethal and diverse!One of the most accurate round is in this caliber.,the 6 PPC and many more!For women and children it is a super caliber for hunting.With all the new scopes and apps as well as powders much more can be achieved as previously!I would be curious after reading your article here what are your thoughts about the 6ARC for hunting up to 300m.?I must say being based partially on the 6PPC I expect great results from this cartridge and it will be great for up to 600m on varmints in windy conditions!What is your thought?
Hi Ernst. Good to hear from you. Yes, the 6mms are a good option for many. With the right bullets and placement, they are surprisingly effective. I’ve used mainly the 6mm Remington and 243 Win. and have found them deadly on whitetails, mule deer, pronghorns, and of course coyotes, bobcats and various rodents. Even used a 243 WSSM once to take a Dall’s ram at 450 yards. I don’t usually like to take such long shots, but last day, standing broadside, wide open, etc. Hit it 4 of 5 times, twice standing, once running, and a finisher standing. Before you chastise me for “too little gun,” know that my partner did the exact same thing on his sheep while using a 270 WSSM. His bullets were a bit too hard to expand well at that range and mine were a bit too slow to open properly at that range. We’d both hit lungs our first shot. Anyway, I think the 6mm ARC will be adequate for similar game to 300 meters, but one will need to know and compensate for its more looping trajectory. Given that small powder charge and subsequent low MV (2,750 fps from 24″ bl., 105-gr. bullet) you can’t expect 240 Wby. performance. I understand why some shooters love the AR platform, but I “don’t get it” as a hunting tool. In my considerable experience I don’t see what it offers that more traditional actions don’t provide. More magazine capacity? Not needed. In fact, in many hunting jurisdictions magazine capacity is limited to 3, 4 or 5. And,as the old times always told us kids, if you can’t hit him on the first shot, what makes you think you will on the fourth? Sacrificing MV to gain extra rounds just doesn’t strike me as all that beneficial. But… Each to his own. Plenty of hunters think I’m a few bricks shy of a full load when I go afield with a single-shot. Cheers, my friend.
What is the expected barrel life of the 6mm Creedmoor? I am not talking about maximum/hot loads but mid range loads.
Charl, it depends on the barrel, the cartridges, how the two are used, and your definition of barrel life. PRS type competition shooters report about 1,000 shots before losing acceptable (to them)performance, but they are shooting fairly long strings, which means a hot barrel. A hunters firing perhaps 2 or 3 shots every day or two (cold barrel) would expect perhaps 2,000 rounds. And someone who accepts a velocity fall-off of 100 to 200 fps due to a lengthening throat plus accuracy going from 1/2 MOA to 1 or 1 1/2 MOA might get 3,000 rounds. Regardless, barrels should be thought of as “tires” on a truck or race car. If you want to go fast or enjoy durable off-road performance, you get the tires to handle that and replace them when necessary. Shooters could extend barrel life to 10,000 rounds ( and probably twice that) if they’d just chambered for 22 Long Rifle.